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Post by djinn007 on Sept 4, 2007 19:00:00 GMT 1
I don't know, never try it. I think it is much more simply to say "grey". I think that the SRSH has choosen this word "grey" as the best one, the most convenient for everybody. At 2 months old, puppies have not yet their definitive colour of coat so if you say one colour and after a few months, it isn't the good one In France, their colour on the pedigrees is Beige- argenté (Be.a.) and nobody has the choice. It is the same for everybody. In The Netherlands, the colour is also "grijs" thus "grey". To say about the colours into the official FCI standard : Color : Silver-, roe deer- or mouse-grey, as well as shadings between these colour tones. That includes all the shades. Nothing specific about the blue color but for me it is a shade from the grey colour even coming from a dilution of black. Thus why reject those dogs ? It shows that lot of ink will still flow for a long time about the Blue Weimaraners. It was the same for the "black and white" Epagneul Breton, in France. At the beginning of the breed, the black & white was present. After, they have reject this color for more then 30 years I think. They accept only the orange & white, the brown and white, the 3 coloured but not the black & white. Now for +/- 30 years I think, they accept this natural color because they can't deny definitively this talrous bl. & wh. dogs. I think it is the same for the blue weimaraner. We have not bred and selected on this color in Europe but I am sure that some specimens where already born in our countries in the past. Other else why can you explain that in the same litter you can have blue puppies (thus dilution from black) and "usual" grey puppies (thus dilution from brown)
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tasha
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Post by tasha on Sept 4, 2007 19:17:28 GMT 1
But then Anne your making a rod for your own back you can't have it both ways, I know that a grey dog and a grey dog mating cannot produce blue genetically its impossible but that is what we are being asked to believe and that a short hair to a short hair can produce longhairs because of the carrier factor but its not just the colour that is passed is it?? There are other considerations to be made, colour is just one element but the most easily identified because it stares you in the face but what about everything else that goes into make up that blue dog?? In some respects if that view is carried forward then the Blue weimaraner is not infact a weimaraner at all because at some point there must have been something which produced casar and the others like him in the first place, in all likelihood trials being carried out to produce the dobermann. Again old debate as there are several others out there. In which case should the Blue be registered as a complete separate breed the same way that the Slovakian Rough Haired Pointer has been (although that is different because they mixed the breeds to produce a wirehaired weimaraner but closest example I can think of to use) Personally I'd prefer that it be given a different breed of its own and recognised in the show ring rather than unrecognised as a fault because of the impossibility of production from a grey to a grey dog.... Again a debate we have had before but at the end of the day a decision in Europe has to be made and better it a positive one than an exclusion that will maintain its 'rare' and therefore value to puppy farmers looking to make a quick buck. I've seen pictures of Lab x weims that look like blues, black pointer cross weims that look like weims but aren't so the mix would be anyones guess. djinn007 you'd get the mixed litters because the genetics are carried from each parent... same as if you mixed a terrier with a lab some would look like labs some like terriers not necessarily all the same some would be a mix of both.
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Post by anne on Sept 4, 2007 19:48:46 GMT 1
Tasha,
I really don't understand what you mean about I "can't have it both ways." I also don't understand "I know that a grey dog and a grey dog mating cannot produce blue genetically its impossible but that is what we are being asked to believe" Who is asking you to believe this??
While your argument about Doberman crosses is one that can be logically argued, my (nitpicking) point was about the term "thrown." Because so many people don't understand the simple dominant inheritance, I am wary of the term "thrown" because of the implication that blue can pop up unexpectedly when 2 grays are bred together. As you state, it can never happen -- genetically impossible.
Further, a supposed cross done 60 years ago is moot as it is cannot be proven. As for cross breeding in general, it's not a huge sin. Even the Germans cross bred Weims to Pointers. They say that the resulting offspring did not get into the gene pool, but who knows. And who knows what anyone else in the history of Weims has ever done.
I don't think blues should be a separate breed because in my mind they aren't.
Everything else, people breeding blues to make a quick buck etc. is not the point and shouldn't be the basis of making an important decision about the standard or disqualifying faults. There are people that breed grays for the same (bad) reasons. By taking this logic, you could possibly argue that legitimizing blues is one way to keep people from exploiting them as rare.
Anne
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Post by Sylvia on Sept 4, 2007 20:18:45 GMT 1
I don't know, never try it. I think it is much more simply to say "grey". I think that the SRSH has choosen this word "grey" as the best one, the most convenient for everybody. At 2 months old, puppies have not yet their definitive colour of coat so if you say one colour and after a few months, it isn't the good one That is true the colors are not the definitive colours. But there are people registrating them as Silvergrey etc. As well the France as Dutch. Funny about the Belgium stud books. The dogs registered at the France part are written in French in the stud books and the Dutch part in Dutch ;D Where do I say to reject those dogs? Nowhere, I only write the standard correct, you write shades of grey from light to dark, but that is not in the standard. As I said after that there is also not in the standard how dark the color maybe or how the "shades of grey" have to be read. Yes blue will always be a discussion How you mean dogs blue in a litter of greys? Blue is dominant and cannot be born out of grey.
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Post by Sylvia on Sept 4, 2007 20:26:12 GMT 1
But the registrations give specific colours, I have many Belgoum stud book pages from 1974 onwards to present. And I see Silver-, Roegrey etc showing up. If we do today the paperwork to get our puppies pedigrees, I always write "Grey" as their coat color... This is what the puppies pedigrees says, as I receive them from our kennelclub. So what you write on your application form, is what you get, I think .. Maybe if I try to fill in "Silver-Grey" next time, we could see if St Hubertus accept it You can try pink maybe see of they accept it ;D
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Kobie
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Post by Kobie on Sept 4, 2007 21:09:17 GMT 1
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Post by Steve Graham on Sept 4, 2007 22:58:30 GMT 1
I know that a grey dog and a grey dog mating cannot produce blue genetically its impossible but that is what we are being asked to believe and that a short hair to a short hair can produce longhairs because of the carrier factor but its not just the colour that is passed is it?? Regardless of one's opinion on blue Weimaraners, the waters are always muddied when simple genetic inheritance is misunderstood. I recommend Genetics for Dummies by Tara Rodden Robinson. Check Amazon.com in Europe. I was able to get the German translation here in the U.S. (Note that Dr. Robinson is on the faculty at Oregon State University, not far from my home, but I do not know her.)
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tasha
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Post by tasha on Sept 5, 2007 1:11:42 GMT 1
its ok steve I read the basics of genetics... The basic being that offspring gain genetic material from both sire and dam even if it has been diluted. My point was that unlike the longhairs where they are proven to appear to skip the generations when two carriers are bred together (something we can now test for) the blues can only be bred when a blue dog is present as either sire or dam of the litter. Which gives you a chicken and the egg senerio........ My personal opinion is that you either have to embrace or reject at least to provide some clarity for owners but my devils advocate hat is on for this particular subject. In the UK the majority of the breeding stock of blue dogs is not in the hands of responsible breeders something I personal hope will change with time. One element of concern for me is that alot of people who breed working lurchers are very attracted to breeding the blue weimaraners in with their stock because of the attractive colour and size shape compatability - makes them a target for theft in some areas my own included.
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Post by Steve Graham on Sept 6, 2007 15:45:34 GMT 1
I'm sure you mean "two grey parents," since only only one parent needs to be "blue" in order to have "blue" puppies in a litter. (Unless, of course, one parent is homozygous for the blue trait (has no "grey") in which case all puppies will be "blue." I believe the dominance of the "blue" trait is one of the reasons for the fear and loathing that has erupted in the U.S. for the last 60 years. If breeders paid no attention to colour, the "grey" would nearly disappear. This is why the VDD (German Drahthaar club) prohibits breeding black to black (which is the only way a homozygous black can be produced) See www.weim.net/twn/General/blue-weim.htm for a discussion written by Homer Carr, a noted U.S. Weimaraner breeder, 50 years ago.
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Post by djinn007 on Sept 6, 2007 16:20:07 GMT 1
I believe the dominance of the "blue" trait is one of the reasons for the fear and loathing that has erupted in the U.S. for the last 60 years. If breeders paid no attention to colour, the "grey" would nearly disappear. This is why the VDD (German Drahthaar club) prohibits breeding black to black (which is the only way a homozygous black can be produced) See www.weim.net/twn/General/blue-weim.htm for a discussion written by Homer Carr, a noted U.S. Weimaraner breeder, 50 years ago. Very intersting article. That proofs what I was saying upper : in the beginning some of Blue's were born in Europe and exported to the US where it was reproduce to give the actual Blue's. I think also that the dominant trait of the "blue" or black pigment generate a fear for the "grey's". But I don't think that grey's will disappear because lots of people like the lighters colours : the silver-grey's, or mouse-grey's or roe-deer's. Others like the blue's but they are not at all the majority of weim's lovers.
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Post by anne on Sept 6, 2007 18:38:49 GMT 1
Steve, Doesn't the VDD also limit the number of blacks produced overall? Could have sworn I heard that. I do like those blacks... (figures right? LOL) Anne
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Post by Steve Graham on Sept 7, 2007 0:13:19 GMT 1
Steve, Doesn't the VDD also limit the number of blacks produced overall? Could have sworn I heard that. I do like those blacks... (figures right? LOL) Anne I can't find the details at the moment, but I seem to remember some sort of limitation. Since they approve breedings in advance, it's easy to do.
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Post by Steve Graham on Sept 7, 2007 0:24:34 GMT 1
But I don't think that greys will disappear because lots of people like the lighters colours : the silver-greys, or mouse-greys or roe-deers. Others like the blues but they are not at all the majority of weim lovers. I concur. Note that the Deutsch Kurzhaar club doesn't limit breeding of blacks, apparently because the majority of owners like the liver colour and therefore is not in peril. In a similar vein, note the recent uproar over somebody's prediction that because the gene for red hair in humans is recessive and there's no advantage to being red-haired, that redheads à la Cate Blanchett will cease to be born by the year 2010.
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Post by daniela on Sept 7, 2007 8:47:25 GMT 1
LOL, who said that? Maybe I should consider dying my hair, perhaps my life will become so much more exciting if I have the same hair colour as everyone else........... Baaaa
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tasha
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Post by tasha on Sept 7, 2007 14:18:52 GMT 1
don't! you have gorgeous hair!!!! Lucky thing ;D I love red hair your very lucky look at all those people who go red out of a bottle ;D My aunt is shocking red and used to lorry drive across the desert as part of a convoy the chaps were offered alot of money and gifts for her because of her lovely hair colour. ;D I don't think anyone is really that bothered about the Blues taking over, more that the colour was rejected by the germans only found in the states prior to export besides the odd one or two reported that were a bit suspect anyway on breeding.
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Post by Jaeger on Sept 7, 2007 18:03:12 GMT 1
If anyone is still interested in a blue Weimaraner or is this just a paper discussion? I got an address in Germany You will find it on www.marktplaats.nl fill in Weimaraner and you get all the Weimaraners in Belgium/Holland/Germany and scroll to Blauwe (Blue) Weimaraner and get yourself a puppy.
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Post by anne on Sept 7, 2007 20:01:22 GMT 1
the colour was rejected by the germans only found in the states prior to export besides the odd one or two reported that were a bit suspect anyway on breeding. Tasha, The Germans rejected the color AFTER Casar was exported to the States. Anne
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tasha
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Post by tasha on Sept 8, 2007 0:01:06 GMT 1
I know you'd have thought they would have seen him on their own records first wouldn't you Always wondered about that...
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Post by anne on Sept 8, 2007 0:09:15 GMT 1
Well the whole story has holes. Thus the reason it's debated ad infinitum... We'll never know the real answers.
That said... I am trying to understand your (Tasha) perspective/points made in this thread.
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tasha
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Post by tasha on Sept 8, 2007 1:08:30 GMT 1
I wouldn't was playing devils advocate... gist is
on one hand the americans have accepted the blue weimaraner and made a decision that they can do all but be shown, the Uk now have blues and have yet to make a proper decision but at the moment they can be shown if someone was brave enough to give it a go.
On a person basis I think a decision should be made that is positive for the breed so that if the blue is rejected by the clubs then why not give it its own status as they have done with the SRHP or just get on and embrace it. The DNA idea of a blue only being able to be bred from a blue x grey or blue to blue match would support that route.
What I don't want to see is blue dogs left at the hands of poor breeders or puppy farmers to make alot of money out of them or the latest thing to chuck in with the production of local lurchers.
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