Which brand of food do you use

[daniela]

LOL Sylvia, just read your comment about the smell.

Can sympathise with that! Waking up to the smell first thing in the morning had me heaving but I have always had a weak stomach

[Sylvia]

daniela said:

Ok, I have another question.....LOL

When feeding a 'natural' diet to young puppies how do you evaluate what they are getting in terms of protein, calcium et al?

I mean, is there no danger of over supplementing a young puppy or is there a way to really evaluate the goodness they get?

I would love to know what you all think, I have always wondered about this.

Thanks

Well a little hard to explain, especially for me who is not english.
There are different people who wrote books about the BARD methode, and they all are a little different from eachother.
We have the book of Mogens Eliasen. And also he says it is quit difficult to feed the puppies. In the first place he says that the most important food for the puppies is the milk till the age of 7 / 8 weeks.
There after the mother throws up the food for the puppies. So it is a little consumed then already, and we never can do that for a puppy what the mother normally does. We can make a total meal with changing for the puppies. Sometimes blendering, sometimes a little cooking, other times we give food what is meant for animals in the grow (most important then is Milk) but you also can think of eggs, the egg is the food for the little chicken who eats that till he comes out. And we can give grain which we soak a little. The are fast in the consuming for the puppies, so gives fast energie.

But there are more people who wrote about the raw feeding. Another 1 is Ian Billinghurst but I don't know his opinion about feeding puppies, it can be a little different.

The wolves (where our dogs come from) are preditors. They eat what they catch on the hunt.
This can be small animals (hares, birds etc.) and big ones (deer, buffelo etc.)
So for the adults 1 the total diet will be animals in parts.
So you give them a head, and then you give the ribbs, and then a stomache. This all can be from different animals, if the total at the end of the circle is 1 animal with all its part. (You have to go out then from a percentage of the animal what is what (Bones, intestines and the meat)
You can give fish as well, what is also good sometimes.
And you can fill up with some yoghurt, eggs, vegetables. Wolves who not always have a animal to eat also eat other things like berries and other things they can find
But also about this people write a little different things.

Well a lot to explain about how and what. The best way is reading books and read on BARFlists (there is a Weimaraner Barflist )

I like the book of Mogens Eliasen. It is an easy to read book, and he tells exactly how the whole consuming of the wolf works. what they eat and so on. (and so that of our pets today)

[Alkemist]

I feel that as I feed both, I can say that my dogs get very excited over their chicken, and one of them refuses his kibble on a regular basis. the other 2 - they are still excited over their kibble, but not as much. Their teeth are fantastic on raw too.

I have heard, and I am not an expert so others may know better, that when the food is digested - what is needed is taken and the rest comes out the other end.
As for what is missing - I do not really know how you would work that out, but as most of the dried food markets use colourings, preservatives, artificial flavours, I suppose I take the view you know what they are not getting.

If I could find a really good quality food that was ready prepared and naturally nutritionally balanced, and did not cost a fortune, then I'd do that for convenience.

There are pro's and cons of everything, but you just have to do what you feel is right for you.

Nina and Jensen

PS I never feed any cooked bones of any sort - they are deadly.

[Sylvia]

Here some pics of our dogs eating small bones, they are allowed to eat that in the house

Bo-ghy with chicken


Lara with duck


Shena with some ribbs


Vidar with Chicken


And a last 1 from Bo-ghy

[smokeybear]

Hi Kobie I do not feed any commercial food to my dogs and prefer instead to feed the raw diet which I have done for 4.5 years.

The best food for your dog is the one that it is healthiest on and choosing between brands is difficult unless you really understand what is on the label (and what is not) for comparison shopping.

I am not sure how the raw meaty bone diet differs from BARF however I prefer not to use the latter term as it was “invented” by Billingshurst and I do not necessarily agree with all his ideas.

Dogs will guard valuable resources and as most see raw food as more valuable than commercial food an increase in resource guarding is often observed; however this is easily resolved by feeding the dogs separately which I do, and as it takes mere seconds for them to consume several chicken wings this is not a problem.

When giving them recreational bones they retire to their respective beds etc.

I feed chicken, turkey, venison, beef, pork, lamb, fish, eggs, vegetable and fruit with no grains whatsoever and the only dairy product they consume is live yoghurt.

I do feed herbs but I do not think those included in commercial feeds have any real value as they have been through too much processing, also the amount contained in Autarky for example are often counter productive ie I would not feed some of those in combination.

I prefer to get herbal mixes from licensed produces as then I can be assured of the quality and value

Feeding a balanced raw or even home cooked diet is no more difficult than producing a balanced regime for your family members, once you have done the research and understand the sources of nutrients, what dogs must have and should not consume.

I think nature is the best guide and if we feed animals what nature intended then one cannot go far wrong, it is when we interfere with nature that problems arise, in all species.

Nature manages to ensure that huge predators in the wild such as tigers, lions and amongst the canids wolves etc grow and thrive on a diet that it provides and is not “scientifically” produced because the foods that they eat in the wild are “naturally” balanced to provide the nutrients dogs need ie raw meaty bones contain the perfect calcium:phosphorus ratio.

However at the end of the day one must feed what suits both one’s dogs and oneself, thank heavens we are not all the same as we would then have absolutely nothing to learn or discuss!

[Kobie]

daniela said:

When feeding a 'natural' diet to young puppies how do you evaluate what they are getting in terms of protein, calcium et al?

Good point !

[smokeybear]

Well how do you evaluate how much protein your dog is getting in commercial food?

What does the label ACTUALLY tell you?

Not a lot!

It tells you the total protein, it does not differentiate between complete and incomplete protein.

It does not tell you what percentage of that protein is bio available to your dog ie is it indigestible and worthless as in beaks and feathers or is very digestible and valuable as in muscle meat?

Have you done the calculation required to ascertain what ACTUAL protein is in the food after removing moisture (this is different to that on the label).

If you can do all that yourself from commercial food you are a better man than I am gunga din.

As I feed raw I can immediately quantify EXACTLY what protein, calcium etc content my dogs are consuming and I can assure you that raw fed puppies grow up extremely healthily.

[Kobie]

Sylvia said:

We have the book of Mogens Eliasen. And also he says it is quit difficult to feed the puppies.


We use on puppies 'Duck' next to puppy kibble, goatmilk (and buttermilk) on very young age.

Duck is again natural frozen food, with different flavors.
see www.ducknatuurvoeding.com/

I'm very aware to use good food brands for my dogs,

[smokeybear]

Personally I would never feed milk to dogs as they are not equipped to deal with the lactose as they are deficient in the enzyme lactase and many are casein intolerant and there is nothing in milk that cannot be obtained from a more suitable source.

No animal bar man consumes milk post weaning.

But then again many people feed milk with no problems to their dogs, it just means their digestive systems have to work harder as the material is broken down in the gut rather than by digestive enzymes which means an increase in bacterial activity which often translates into rather a lot of gas! ROFLMAO

Duck is not a bad food and many of my friends use it on their dogs.

[Kobie]

I feed goatmilk mainly over buttermilk, because goatmilk is nothing like milk of a cow. Goatmilk has another composition than cowmilk and is very healthy !!

And feeding goatmilk, means not give the pups that each meal, but once a little quantity on a day...

Duck is a very good alternative instead of raw meat !

I think a diet of Duck, goatmilk and kibble is the best you can give to puppies....

[Irena]

Kobie, sorry, how do you mean it, duck vs. raw meat? Would duck not be fed raw? What do you mean by "raw meat"? Beef only? Sorry I am not aware of what different philosophies call things.

And Sylvia, one Q for you - I am NEVER sure what to do with ribs, so I just don't give them. Chicken ribs (attached to those backs) she just chews (she is a slow an thoughtful eater, LOL), but what about the ones in your pics? To they only chew the meat off of them, or eat the bones too?

Feeding a balanced raw or even home cooked diet is no more difficult than producing a balanced regime for your family members, once you have done the research and understand the sources of nutrients, what dogs must have and should not consume.

Well, no, but it is difficult in terms of time. I ALWAYS have to make sure I have something prepared for Audry for when we get home, or I have gotten something from the market (meat) or store (cottage cheese etc). With kibble, you just open the bag/container and feed. With raw and home cooked, you have to think about it constantly and well in advance, and more than you think about your own diet (as I've found ). Since I try not to feed defrosted meat to Audry (just don't like the thought of it), I need to make sure I have something fresh for her in the fridge for that day, or make sure I stay awake and cook for her so she'll have something in the morning. But since I enjoy doing it for her, I don't mind and we usually manage just fine.

[Kobie]

Raw meat is like Sylvia feed her dogs on the photo's ! Directly from the butcher (?)
Duck is also fresh meat, directly frozen, but in cut pieces of 100 gr each. Very easy for taking out of the freeze.
All ingrediences a dog need is in it !

For puppies also very to advise, because of the small pieces.

[marjolein]

Yes Irena, the bones can be fed just like on Sylvia's pics. Every now and then I buy my lot a whole chicken and give it to them in one piece. No problem for them, although I do know there is a risk involved, feeding them bones.

[Kobie]

Marjolein,

I think there is a huge risk feeding bones to a dog. Specially small bones is risky....

[Sylvia]

kobie said:

Marjolein,

I think there is a huge risk feeding bones to a dog. Specially small bones is risky....

No it is not.
It is a risk when they are cooked.
Raw bones you can give without a problem IF your dog know the rawfeeding.
Dogs who only get dry food mostly don't have such a good digestion. They also tell people to be carefull in the beginning.

Edit: Where you the most can be awared of is the "carrying bones" so the bones which carry the weight of the animal.
There under fell the legs and for the birds as well the wings.

[Sylvia]

kobie said:

Sylvia said:

We have the book of Mogens Eliasen. And also he says it is quit difficult to feed the puppies.


We use on puppies 'Duck' next to puppy kibble, goatmilk (and buttermilk) on very young age.

Duck is again natural frozen food, with different flavors.
see www.ducknatuurvoeding.com/

I'm very aware to use good food brands for my dogs,

I know duck as well. But here in Holland it is harder to get.
I still have a ticket to get 2 KG for free.
Further we are very pleased with Carnibest. It is a little better balanced

[Sylvia]

kobie said:

Sylvia said:

We have the book of Mogens Eliasen. And also he says it is quit difficult to feed the puppies.
We use on puppies 'Duck' next to puppy kibble, goatmilk (and buttermilk) on very young age.

Why goatmilk? What is your statement for using goatmilk? What does it give more to the puppies in your opinion....

[daniela]

Thanks for those who answered my quesions....

Smokeybear's in particular. Though I have to admit, your answers, in some cases, went over my head a little

I understand how you are trying to demonstrate that you cannot evaluate the protein levels etc of commercial foods by simply reading a label because of all the other attributing factors which you mention.

So this begs the question, if scientists who work on formulating these commercial foods can’t give the exact quantities of protein/calcium etc that your dog will consume (I assume because by the time you get the food home the factors you mention are out of their control), then how is Jo Smo, i.e me, supposed to know what my dog will consume when trying to feed a raw diet?

For the record, I currently feed a commercial food and I am thinking about making the 'change' so I ask out of genuine interest.

What I am struggling to understand is how, when feeding a raw diet you quantify exactly what is the correct amount of protein, calcium etc in correlation to their age, size, et al

Do the books suggested throughout this thread cover this?

Thanks

[Sylvia]

daniela said:

Do the books suggested throughout this thread cover this?

Thanks

Yes the most books do tell you a lot about the feeding.
They tell you how and why. They tell you how the digestion is of the dog comparing with what the wolf eats.
Maybe a nice link, this is a site where are some articles of the rawfeeding from Mogens Eliasen. And you also can order his E-book there. k9joy.com/

And on the site of Anne stands also some nice information with a link to an E-book as well www.weim.net/riley/raw.htm

Then you have already some read "food"

[anne]

Daniela,

I too feed raw and I was very concerned about the very thing you bring up, ie, how do you know what your dog is consuming. I agree with Smokeybear, there are more knowns when feeding raw than kibble. I don't know about labeling laws in other countries but here in the US, they are only required to list ingredients in order of relative quanitity. It is also hard to know where the meats were rendered and to know what the quality of the meat was in the first place. The FDA (Federal Drug Administration) allows what we call 4-D meats in dog food, meaning dead, decayed, diseased and dying.

The point is, one only THINKS that they know exactly what is in kibble and having some handy chart showing X% protein is totally deceiving. Just because there is a certain amount of protein in a food doesn't mean it's GOOD protein, nor does it mean that it is available to your dog. In other words whether your dog is actually using it or pooping it right out (digestibility).

I know exactly where you are coming from because your concerns were mine too when I first started feeding raw, but let's put it this way.... We all feed our children with basic knowledge of nutrition and do not fret about the exact levels of this or that in what they eat. We know what is healthy and with this basic understanding we manage to feed our human children eat correctly. Why should we stress more about feeding the dog when feeding children is so easy? You don't need to worry about balance at every meal, you should concern yourself with balance over time. Imagine "the whole prey model." A wild animal would eat one part of the animal one time and then some other part the next time they bring down a kill. In the end they are getting a healthy diet even if one day they eat more of the guts and entrails and another day they are eating more muscle meat and bones.

All this said, understanding BASIC canine nutrition is important.

This is boring reading but might make you feel less nervous:
Nutrient Requirements of Dogs, Revised 1985
Committee on Animal Nutrition, National Research Council

www.nap.edu/books/0309034965/html
"This volume, which replaces the 1974 edition, provides from current published sources a summary of the minimum dietary requirements of essential nutrients for dogs. Common signs of deficiencies and toxicity are discussed, along with the criteria for arriving at energy and nutrient requirements. The new edition contains recommendations for available nutrient content of representative commercial dog foods expressed on the basis of metabolizable energy content, which should lead to greater uniformity in the nutritional adequacy of foods with varying caloric density and facilitate meaningful comparisons of such products."

As Sylvia mentioned there is a Weim BARF list if you are interested in joining (www.weim.net/mailing.htm)

Anne