Where do you see the breed today -- and tomorrow?

[anne]

Regarding Irena's comments about working dogs and what the breed should look like....

I worry about this with Weims. There are breeders that are not interested in hunting and therefore have no idea whether the instinct is still there or not. Even worse (I am sorry but this is just my opinion) are those countries that do not allow hunting anymore. I cannot imagine generations of breeding without testing for this attribute. The statement may be true with Greyhounds, but I have seen Weims that have NO CLUE what birds are about, and with enough of those types of dogs around, I can see the "use it or lose it" rule applying here. I have seen some sorry Weims in the field. I hate to see it. I helped put together a hunting test at the 2004 National Specialty and have saw some dogs that didn't have much instinct in the field. And worst of all, the owners didn't understand why their dogs didn't qualify for the rating. I don't think that this is OK just because their dogs were beautiful show dogs. As Irena mentioned, the drive just doesn't compare.

The other problem with the split is that you end up with 2 distinct gene pools, both of which IMO is small! Few are willing to sacrifice their outstanding show or field lines by bringing in something which may add the missing piece and take away from their looks/working ability.

[anne]

Irena wrote:
"The other Weim, with her low tail-set and thick stubby tail, short neck, (and I don't even know how to describe her head and eyes), and no angulation front or rear, just looked like a piglet let out in the field. Apologies for my dilettante description and comparions, but that is the most concise way to put it."

This made me laugh...

But also reminds me of one of my favorite Weims out there. Actually 2 of my favorite Weims out there. One is Pixy's mom. She's overweight and small and does look like a little piglet. Has some nice conformation attributes, but it would take a trained eye to see it, I think. She's mostly just ugly. But man, the heart she has in the field will take your breath away. I have seen few Weims like her. The other favorite is also one of the ugliest I have ever seen. I joke about it with her breeders. Their take on it is.... conformation is easy to fix, heart is not easy to get. And that is my view of Pixy. She's a project where i have to look at the next generation. Oh and you can imagine how difficult it is to even start thinking about studs! She's not even a year and I'm already starting to think about this, and very few are even making it on to my "consider" list. Sigh!

[Irena]

daniela said:

On another note, I am just wondering what you guys deem by the word ‘pet’?

I see it in two ways at least. I must admit I think the "oh he's just a pet" people in countries where a lot of the Weim population is found among people that know nothing about dogs, let alone Weims, have created such a grave image of the Weimaraner that it is impossible to convince others that Weimaraners are an amazing breed. When I was working in England, I met some people who heard I was getting a Weim puppy and said, "oh, those crazy dogs". One said, "oh, I know, I know, my colleague has one and he ate his Land Cruiser's interior once!" Others have said they are uncontrollable and just hyper. What I saw at the kennels was: One male that would hardly rest and would pee and mark his kennel on the walls the whole time, as well as poop there; two males that were brought in wearing "halti" or "gentle leader" or whatever head harnesses; a 14 year old female that would pace in circles around her kennel all day and piss and poop in it too and walk through it; and finally two males that seemed to make the most sense of all, at least they were OK and "normal", as far as I remember, as was another female. I was horrified to see the rest though, wondering if I really chose the right breed. Other breeds did the same things often, but there were WEIMS, and I felt like people might think, "oh, so that is what they are like". Those are just my little experiences and perhaps just unlucky, but at any rate I feel that "oh he's just a pet" people that have no clue are potentially ruining our breed.

However, according to Fred(Wetdog), a PET is the BEST thing any dog can be for his owner, and I totally agree with that. And that is not so easy to breed for either, because it has to have good temperament and good health at least. My dog is most of the time a pet for me - I take her everywhere with me (no matter how crowded or unusual the venue is), and she is perfect. (Or, if I have to, I need to be able to leave her at home alone and not come back to a destroyed apartment because she had separation anxiety fits.) She behaves impeccably on public transport, at cafes and anywhere else I take her. And she is just a 1 year old youngster. So I am thankful that I have acquired such a great pet and a best buddy in her.

As Daniela says, ideally I too think a Weim "should" be able to be both beautiful and birdy, but it cannot be easy to breed! Also, there is a difference I think between "some" ability, the minimum to prove that they still do know what birds are, and a spectacular performance that only a professional hunter would appreciate (and need). I would not mind AT ALL testing at some level, but I really think I will never be able to or even want to try and breed a Field Champion (or whatever the highest awards or titles are in this sport). I know it would take too many sacrifices that I just couldn't make, first of all because it is not my main interest. But out of respect for the breed, I would do some (and have already done some, and am interested to see how far we can go).

However, I do not agree with limiting the Weimaraner's abilities to hunting only. Indeed hunting bans are being passed, and also Poodles were a purely hunting breed once too, and I have never heard any regrets that they are not hunted anymore (but maybe there are regrets, I just don't know). I think Weimaraners can be good at so many things apart from hunting. I do understand breeders (like in Germany etc.) who don't sell pups to non-hunters, but then I wouldn't ask them for a pup anyway if all they had focused on was hunting. From what I have seen, they make great Agility dogs, enjoy tracking (including bloodtracking, another thing hunters need), can do Flyball and Frisbee and of course Obedience and related disciplines. I recently read an article about teaching a German Shepherd to heard sheep and I have a crazy thought to try that with my dog, just for fun. And Schutzhund has always been on my list and I have been raising my pup with this in perspective (not taking it to the aggression phase but taking it as a game).

Maybe I am just nuts, but I only love one breed, and want to do a lot of things just with them. And hunting is just a fraction of what I am interested in doing with them. But most of all I am happy and proud that at least people that have seen Weims in Latvia will not say "oh, those crazy dogs" because we only have a few yet (no one had a chance to ruin their reputation) and the few we have are indeed good examples of what a great companion Weim can be.

[Irena]

admin said:

However, I do not agree with limiting the Weimaraner's abilities to hunting only. Indeed hunting bans are being passed, and also Poodles were a purely hunting breed once too

And this is said NOT to offend anyone at all. I am just saying that if indeed a time comes when hunting is not an option or a common interest anymore, will Weims become redundant then? I don't think so because to me they are so much more than that, and I have many uses for them, including them being wonderful pets for a person who loves walks and other activities. I would not put all the eggs in one basket and see the breed disappear because hunters could not use it anymore.

[marjolein]

One of the pups frommy first litter is herding sheep Irena. Fab, isn't it?!?!!!!!
I never said you should try to get your dog a field trial champion. That's impossible for the most of us. Even for me and I'm really doing everything I can to achieve something.
All I want, is that the dogs have some kind of ability, whether that's used or not, is not important to me. Although I do have to say I saw my dogs change the moment I took themon their first hunt.

[daniela]

I personally dislike the trend we see in the US today with show Weims being so large. I feel it is detrimental to hunting and many times size is outside of standard, and being at the top of the standard is becoming the norm.

Hi Anne

I know that the AKC standard allows for an extra inch over 27 inches but this should be penalised, therefore are you talking about males that are standing over 28 inches?

Equally bitches standing over 26 inches?

[anne]

Daniella,

IMO the trend is for dogs and bitches to be at the top of the standard, often over the 1 inch allowance. This is supposed to be penalized, but it isn't. There is a top show bitch that, while I have not measured her, is surely either just at or possibly over 26 (I think she's over). It's gotten to the point IMO (and depending on location) where a 27 inch male looks like he's average. A 25 inch male appears to be very small and those under 25 are just midget looking. And judges do not penalize the over 1 inch equally as the 1 inch under.

Anne

[anne]

I agree about the pet aspect. Even those dogs in hard core hunting homes, are pets most of the year.

I love that Weims are so versatile. But if we are ever not allowed to hunt with our dogs, I wonder if I would have a Weim. I know many Weims that are perfectly happy not hunting and I don't condemn anyone that makes a choice not to do this, but it's jsut that when my dogs are out there, I truly can see that it is so much a part of what and who they are, that denying them that almost seems cruel to me. I think every Weim should have an opportunity to "dabble" in hunting, whether taken seriously in competition, or to just get the Weim out there to have some fun.

[weimaranermama]

Syrinx wrote: I see pedigrees that are so close they are go in circles.
I see a growing number of immune system problems an inherited problem.
That's what you got in too much inbreed. You dubble the good genes, but also the bad genes and than the big problems are there. And than yo have to breed it out again, if it is possible.
I think, more outbreeding and sometimes go back to your own bloodline, and than outbreeding again, will give a better health and quality for our Weimies. There was a professor in genetics who said the same. He said in Germany: " it would be very good, to cross the LH with the SH, to get an wider genenpool, more health and better noses to smell,
good hips etc.etc.etc. So in every way it is better than to much inbreed. Than you lose more and more of the good qualities of your dogs".
I must say, i agree with that.
My ideal of a Weimaraner is: an healthy, good looking, good hunting dog with an excellent character. And i prefer the elegant type of weimaraner to see and to hunt with.
Irena descriped the diferense on her hunt between the elegant type and the old weimaraner type with more bone and meat on his body. Both types must not have too much of this and and too much of that.
In my opinion, the judges on the shows must care about the good type of the weimaraner and they have to look, that they do not go too far in there dissicions that the winning dog is more like a Whippet or like a Bloodhoud.
I think it is very important, to get NEW BLOOD over the borders, especially for the UK. The Breeders in the UK
could not go overseas and it is to understand, that they used their own in breed.
I think there is no problem with quarantine anymore and if so, the dogs who are living in England, I think, the studdog owners will come over to England, if they are going for the good breed of the weimaraner!!!!!
They will do.
Well i hope i wrote everything down on the good way. To speak english is easier than write.

Greetz Ina.

[weimaranermama]

I saw a topic, that in the US the dogs are going larger and larger. My opinion in that is: "that's very bad, because the weimaraner is still a gundog and not a Poodle, which are not hunting and working anymore. For our Weims it is a shame to split them, because the weimaraner can be beautifull and win a lot of shows ( with more than one or two entries). , and also be a good hunting- and familydog. At the moment I have four weimies at home. Two oldies and two youngsters. In the past I had two more Weimaraners, a SH and a LH. The SH went to hunt for many years and also get his show results, got his HZP in Germany, and that was the start of hunting for us, but he was a dutch champion as well!
That's why later our first LH mail, NL+ INT.CHAMP, LUX.CH, WW '94 and Winner A'dam "94, LORD LARS OF THE GREY NOBLE, breeded by Gerda Hallf, came to our home. This where his Showtitles, BUT he also got his huntingresults, and I am still proud of my "NOBELTJE" his nickname. He was already a legend, during his live. And now, you can not go arround him.!!!



In Holland he got his Fieldtriel Qualifications, in spring and in autumn. And in Germany he got all the tests: VJP, HZP and the "Meisterprufung" VGP. In Austria he got the "VGP" too with the first price. But most important was, he was a pet!!!! Staying at home and loved very much of the family. He had a super character and it was a pleasure to see him working.
So now I have two oldies again, both are champions and both have worked in the field.
1e my Feldmann vom Huseder Forsthaus, NL+INT.CHAMPION, LUX.CH., WORLDWINNER '96, Winner A'DAM '96 and BOB on the weimaraner Clubmatch in Holland that year. And now it comes again, he was a wonderfull hunter, pointing very steady and got his qualifications for the hunt too:, VJP, HZP and two times VGP, one in Germany and one in Austria.
So you can't say, that a workingdog is not good for show!!!!!
At the moment the youngest of the oldies is a son of Lord Lars. His name is NL+INT.CH., Lux.CH.
EUR.J.CH and EUR.CH and Winner A'dam for three years: 1998, 1999, and 2000, Baron Bacchus vom Gstettenhof.
We also went to Germany for the Millennium Sieger (Champion) and it was for two day's with two different judges.
Both of the day's Bacchus stood in the WORKINGCLASSE and got the titles of an showdog being a workingdog. "(BNDSSGR 2000- 1 and BNDSSGR 2000-2!!!!) There is one thing to say, Lars was 1 cm larger then officially was alowed, but his children have the good size and go for hunt very good, as well on the shows and I am very proud of it.
My LH bitch is a resque dog, being placed on a new address, and that's on my home. Cassey is her calling name and she is a big friend of my German Mail dog "Foster vom Weipen". She has not the good hips to breed with, so she is castreted.
My young mail, Foster vom Weipen is a German breed. He is now nearly 3 years old and his brothers and sisters, all have HD-A!!!!! And that is where I am proud of, the good health of their family and the hunting qualities.!!!!!
But.....again, the show results are also there, he got many times Excellent and his off spring too.
And then we come to the point.....I love most.
A GOOD WEIMARANER HAS A GOOD HEALTH, IS LOOKING LIKE A CHAMPION, IS WORKING LIKE A VERY GOOD HUNTINGDOG, AND HAS A VERY GOOD CHARACTER, IS PROTECTING YOU AND YOUR FAMILIE AT HOME AND LOVE YOU MORE THAN ANY OTHER PERSON!!!!!!.
I think there is no more to say, keep our weimies in good health, that's where I am going for.,

[acewild55]

I think sometimes dogs/bitches can look bigger than they actually are... ie height at shoulder.. due to length of neck, length of body... which can give an illusion of extra height... and that is knowing from experience... if I show a dog and anyone wants to put the measure over it just ask.. I would love to prove a lot of people wrong about a couple of dogs I have handled... Cheers Maree

[daniela]

I think sometimes dogs/bitches can look bigger than they actually are... ie height at shoulder..

I couldn't agree more with this. My boy was quite an upstanding sort, as were all his litter brothers but what would sometimes make it worse, was the fact that he used to show right on his toes, always looking around to see what was going on!

I remember being at a champ show, and the judge had a measuring stick......I was in Limit Dog or something and first dog to get measured? Yep, my boy! I remember my heart sinking, cos I had never actually measured him but I had an idea he was around the 26 inch mark. Anyway, the judge went to put the measuring stick over him and he pulled it away so quickly because he could see he was well under and then said to me "Gosh, he's deceiving, stands really proud...."

Yep! In the end, I used to show him with a bit of a platform heel so we looked more balanced together.

[syrinx]

Hey Maree...........who would THAT be??Hehehe ;D When my Phantom won DCC at Sydney Royal, people were coming up in the marshalling area and standing beside him, putting their hand on their leg where his shoulder came up to and then going away to measure! Though they were being SOOOOOOOOO clever! Within two days the rumour had reached Melbourne that he was 34 inches at shoulder!! ;D And I bought myself a measuring stick, so I KNOW how tall he really is!!!!

He is up the top of the standard, but he has this long, graceful neck, so he appears to come up a long way. I, on the other hand, am 'under tall' , so that is not a good combination, just like you discovered Daniela!
Wendy

[daniela]

LOL Wendy....

Well I am probably above average height at 5.7 so with two to three inches added with platform heels, when I used to look down on my boy he looked tiny.....LOL

At the moment, I would say the males are generally more around his height and bone so we certainly wouldn't stand out today.

The biggest Weimaraner I ever saw was over in a park in Sussex. I could see what looked like a Weimaraner in the distance but thought my eyes were deceiving me because even though he was far away he was so huge. Anyway, the dog came galloping over (feel the earth move under my feet I did) and naturally as this dog got nearer, he got bigger and bigger and BIGGER. His owner, who had his leg in cast could barely keep up.

I would say this dog was easily over 30 inches and I later discovered that the owner's leg was broken because the dog had run into him. Hardly surprising, as well as being tall, the dog was built like a brick house too!

[syrinx]

I am 5'4" and, well...............shall we say................undertall for my weight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOL
Wendy

[chiendog]

I posted this to another thread but thought it would be appropriate in this one too......



Warning! A bit of a rant coming up....

I mean no insult to anyone or anyone's dog. What follows are my personal observations and opinions on the breed in general, not a reflection of any individual dog.

I have heard people claim that it is very difficult for a weimaraner to win trials in Europe and I do not doubt them. The competition is fierce and I am sure there is some truth to the assertion that certain judges simply do not like the breed. A good friend of mine has done well in trials in France with his Weimaraners but he is the exception.

However, I would like to point out that the majority of weim breeders outside of Germany and Austria do not base their selection on performance. Rather, they breed dogs mainly for the show ring and hope that the dog can perform well enough in the field to get through a low level hunt test. Furthermore, most Weimaraner owners are not hunters and do not really know what a hunting dog should be able to do.

The "other breeds run further and faster" line is often used to explain why Weims do not win trials. I have also seen people state that "Weimaraners hunt in a completely different way than German Shorthairs etc."

I believe that there is very little justification for these attitudes. Range and speed are important factors in trials but they are not the only factors. Just because a dog runs far and fast does not automatically guarantee a win. It is my opinion that there are very few Weimaraners in the winners circle because most Weimaranars are mediocre hunters at best. It is not that they hunt or run differently, it is because they do not hunt or run very well.

A good working weimaraner may not be quite as fast or far ranging as some other breeds, but the difference should be rather small. If a GSP runs at a full sprint out to 150 metres then a Weimaraner should run nearly as fast and almost as far ( I know a some that run just as fast and far). The difference at most would be in the 10 -20% range.

What usually happens though is that most dogs in a trial are out there really hunting hard, with passion, drive and intensity at whatever the normal range for that type of trial is (in France for example, continental breeds should run about 80 to 100 yards to each side).

And then a Weimaraner is presented. A good one will look alot like the other dogs, RUNNING hard with the same determination and drive as the others. Maybe it will cover (a little) less ground in each cast, and maybe the head will be somewhat lower while running, but there should be no mistake that this dog is out to find game and NEEDS to find it NOW.

More often than not however, a Weim is presented and what we see is a pale reflection of what should be happening. The dog trots here and there, pausing occasionally to piss on a plant or sniff at at mouse hole. If it stumbles across game, it may or may not point and if it does, there is little intensity. Range is never more than 20 or 30 yards despite the handler's urging the dog on. I hate to admit it ( I am after all a weim lover) but some of the worst dogs I have ever seen in the field were Weimaraners. Watching them "hunt" was painful. They were absolutely terrible. Yet in their owner's eyes, they were hunting in the "Weimaraner style".

Bullshit! They were hunting no better than my sister's tea-cup poodle. In fact, they were not hunting, they were out for a stroll wondering when they were going home so they could get back to that nap they were having.

It in no wonder that these types of dogs do not win trials. It is not because "weims don't run as far". The good ones certainly do. It is not because the weim is a "slower worker". Again, the good ones work with speed and drive...maybe not as quickly as a brittany or gsp but certainly at an intense gallop....not a lazy trot.

Maybe it is hard for the owner of such a dog to see just how poorly the dog does compared to other dogs. Maybe justifying the performance on the old "Weims are different" attitude helps the unease. But to an experienced hunter or field trial judge there is no illusion. The dog is crap (excuse my French) and should not be considered for the winners' circle. On the other hand, a good dog is a good dog no matter what colour it is. So if a grey dog enters a trial and runs with speed and style and points with intensity and stays steady etc. etc. then it deserves the top prize.

Most Weimaraners do not win trials because they are competing against dogs that have been selected for athletic performance in keeping with the original purpose of the breed. Those dogs have been selected by hunters and field trialers for just this purpose. Weims on the other hand are typically selected for their appearance by people that do not hunt and do not realize what a hunting dog should be able to do. The few Wemaraners that are selected for performance can compete with any other breed. They run and hunt and point and swim and retrieve very well. But they are the exception.

I am sorry what I have written sounds harsh. I believe that we should be honest. If the Weimaraner is ever to improve as a hunting breed we need to move beyond the attitude of "weims are so different" and get to work on selecting dogs that can compete honestly with the best of the best. We do not need to lose those endearing traits of the breed that we love so much, nor should we lose all traces of the weimaraner style. But we need to realize that a hunting dog, no matter what the breed, is like a high performance sports car ....not a minivan with bald tires and an empty gas tank.

Of course, that is just my opinion....I could be drunk.

[stelei]

Hello Chiendog

I could not agree more!