HOMER @ HOME!!!

[Kobie]

Wish you the best with this stunning male, Leonore
Hope to see him alot in the fields. Too less American weims do huntingtests or FT, wich is a pity, so I am glad you decided to work him
All the best with your litter !!!

[Meander]

Thx you all again for your very kind words, I hugged Homer an extra time for each one of them ;-)
Ina, no we won't be at Bleijswijk, because Cherry's babies are expected around this Wednesday. Tineke will be there with Rembrandt.

Kobie I have to say I don't actually agree with you on american weims I think if you want to generalize you have to say that we see far to less Weims in total on hunttest or FT.
If you just look at this forum and check the pedigree of the weims sharing succes very much are american or have quite some american blood in them. Like your own Ginger, what is she? About 75% american bred weim?

Than if I just look at Holland, on FT at least in the top 3 (for the second year in a row) is an american type bitch. Meander Valerie Tessa. This year in the open class, so that´s different from your amateur competition I believe. Pls correct me if I'm wrong.
In the hunttests in all levels, but on the highest level, which I think you don't run competition on in Belgium, KNJV-A, rarely weimaraners in history have succeeded, last year not one, this year I believe 4, of which again 2 american type. Meander Valerie Tessa (yes again her) and Meander River Sem.
So in Holland for hunttests I think that american type are min. 25% of the weims who compete and beeing very succesful, so not aonly quantity in numbers, also very high points and prices, so quality as well. Than I don't even include the MAP's, which are comparable with your Hubertus (we call it the Belgium Nimrod, don't know if this is the right name) which have a lot of american weims in Holland as well. But still not enough weims in total I think. Our last weim who ahs made it to the Dutch Nimrod level, Yatzu, who you probaly also know, because also has american blood running through( as well as french and so on)
With this I don't even include our dogs who live with us, and whom Robert and I train and handle ourselves.

Pls inform me of your experience because of your comments about american weims, because I'm know you didn't place it out of prejudice.

I think we must all try encourage all people with weims (ALL TYPES!!!) to be even more active, my personal believe is that this is best accomplished by helping and being positive about people and their weims. And give everyone their right to learn and make mistakes. Like I think we all still do and keep on doing, because how else will you learn. And believe me I have made my share and I still haven't finished making them.

Also we don't need to forget all the people who are very active on other (hunting)work. Bloodtracking, agility, obedience, conformation.

[Kobie]

Leonor,

I speak only of what I see here in our country Belgium !
We don't have much weims competing in huntingtests or on FT (not much more than 10-15 I think). Maybe a bit more on huntingtests (africhting) because of the imput of Holland owners
And its like you say, you see most of the time the same dogs, so not that high number of different dogs.
I know in Holland, there are more people doing KNJV, wich is a good thing of course, here, you have only a few doing that, including a few of my offsprings. FT is another thing. There you see even less weimaraners, and just one, "Ginger", is out of min 70% American lines (latest FT contests season). You have dogs indeed with American lines back in their pedigree, but most of them are already mixed with European,German or other lines. In some countries you can't receive even pedigrees for your puppies, if the parents didn't proved their workquality.
I see that you do a good job with your dogs, bringing them to KNJV, africhting, German tests and hopefully FT in the future. I personal think its just an obligation to our breed, to do something (if the conditions allow it, some people just can't). If its now KNJV, Africhting, HVV, Hubertus, Nimrod, FT, or practical hunting.
It's just too important to neglect that part of our breed, wich is bred to be a huntingdog.
I'm so happy that I can do so many different parts of hunting with Ginger, so I hope to prove that she is also capable to run Belgian FT's.
You need also to agree, that most of the pure American imports mostly show, and doing less hunting.
That's why I'm very happy that you will work with Homer, next to his showcarreer ! I really like the show/work combi, but I'm sure not everyone will think that

Another thing, is to encourage people to do some kind of hunting. We have some puppies who are living to a hunters home, but these people aren't mostly that interested in contests. Most of the requests for Belgian weims are for pets, so its also difficult to convinse people to do some hunting (FT, huntingtest or practical hunting).
We try to give the good example to work our dogs ourselfs, to hopefully convinse people to do the same.

So Leonor, maybe you misunderstood, but I'm just happy you work your dogs !

[weimaranermama]

Hello Girls,
You both wrote down my ideal weimaraner and that is one wich you can show and hunt. I did always both of the disciplines with my dogs and with succes. So Leonor and Kobie keep on going, you both do a good job for our versatile breed, the weimaraner.

[marjolein]

Hunting tests and KNJV is NOT hunting. It's teaching dogs tricks. Very clever and I won't be able to do it (mainly because I don't have the patience for this work), but don't put field trials (and also bloodtracking, which is considered a field trial) and hunting on the same level as retrieving games.
I think it's fantastic when people excercise their dogs, I really do, but hunting and field trialling is another thing.

[Peter]

Although I think retrieving is a very important part, and our weims should be able to do it,
both on land and in water,
I have to agree with Marjolein that retrieving is not hunting. If you have a dog who is willing to work with it's owner (no matter what race) you will probably succeed in teaching it to retrieve most things.

I also believe in a versatile weimaraner, but it seems that a lot of breeders have a different interpretation and approach to the "versatile" weimaraner.
There is a world of difference between:
-a showline who manages to hunt on a modest level and
-a workingline who kind of looks good

We will always have two kinds of breeding when it comes to weimaraners, showlines and hunting/worklines
there is a market for both of them so whom am I to judge either of them.

The swedish weimaraner club is doing a great job by setting the demands higher for the dogs approved for breeding. By 2010 all dogs most have a good result on field trials (or forest/mountain) including obligatory retrieving test on land and in water.
In my opinion should all breeders that claim to breed weims with hunting skills try only to use dogs with good results on trials (and preferably with such a pedigree as well), that is the whole point of trials, to show that the dog has good qualities for breeding. Too much dogs without results are still used in breeding and are often chosen for their looks in that case.

On trials the demands are often much higher then when you're out on practical hunting with your dog, so dogs with results often have what it takes if you are looking for a dog to hunt with. But of course there has to be a balance between trialling and practical hunting.

As usual when one tries to explain something you have to generalize, so don't get me wrong, there are great looking dogs which are fabulous hunters and vice versa, some members of the forum did already prove that. ;D

and before i forget, good luck with your dog Leonor!

[efica]

Hey!
Can someone please tell me what a KNJV consists of?
And about the hunting tests for weimaraners - I thought one of the main disciplines tested are searching and pointing and not only retrieving... am I wrong? That's how things go in our country.

I agree that retrieving can be taught, but I can see a big difference in retrieving between different dogs... Some dogs wouldn't hold a specific type of a game...or some have a calmer or more gentle bite than other...
And still I don't see many dogs with a really good retrieving - I think this is mainly because of the way of training.
So I do think retrieving is also important part and shouldn't be neglected.

Eva

[Kobie]

What is really necessary, to begin with... It would be really interesting if FCI equalise huntingtests/FT in every country for a huntingdog. Same disciplines in every European country ... Than we would be able to compare... Now, we can not !

Hunting doesn't mean the same disciplines in each country, so 1+1= not necessary 2 to begin with...
There is already a difference in the name of some tests in the countries. Some countries call it FT, others huntingtests or even another name.
So very difficult to know excactly what a test contains, on what level the dogs needs to work, etc...

I know for example a country that allows a dog in workingclass, after he has "passed" an easy huntingtest, not even equal to a basic huntingtest in our country (and I got it from a person who lives there)... In Belgium, only a FT qualification counts to enter a dog into workingclass (on show).
Don't know how its in other countries, but I have seen more than once a dog who only runs FT, refuse to retreive game or retreiving very very badly, or just refuses to swim, just because their owner think its not important, and vice versa.


We try to do as much as disciplines available in our country, from retreiving (water/land) and surching fields/pointing, judged in FT.

We try to convinse our puppybuyers to do "something" in the field, even if it's a basic/advanced huntingtest, its surely better than having only a lapdog !
We don't have schools for FT, only for huntingtests. Logic that people who haven't any experience, prefer to go there with their dog...

[Irena]

Oct 28, 2008 18:27:49 GMT 1 Kobie said:

What is really necessary, to begin with... It would be really interesting if FCI equalise huntingtests/FT in every country for a huntingdog. Same disciplines in every European country ... Than we would be able to compare... Now, we can not !

Exactly my thoughts too.

I would be interested to see the "easy" regulations, 'cos ours, for instance, are not particularly "easy" - for a pointing dog, only the "field" exams count (so not retrieving and not bloodtracking), and in this "field" test the dog has to search (showing adequate range and speed etc), point, flush, drop down after the bird is flushed and be steady to the shot...

As for the FCI working certificate, I don't think the working class was meant exclusively for Field Trial winners, because those are few and far in between. (though maybe it was, I'm not sure) If someone really wishes to prove their dog's worthiness in terms of pure working ability, there is always the INT.W[orking].Ch. title to gain. (Do any Weimaraners actually have it?)

As for the "easy" retrieving tests, like someone already mentioned, there is a whole lot to teach (and to see coming via natural abilities and inclinations). I've seen a few very "passionate" dogs that didn't however hesitate to tear the game apart instead of retrieving it (and it was and is a persistent problem, not just a one time occurrence), not wanting to actually share it with the owner, grabbing it so hard they left deep tooth marks (talk about the characteristic "soft" mouth that our breed should have), etc....

At any rate I'd much rather have tests where the dog can show if he can or cannot do the job (in the field, retrieving, bloodtracking etc) and be graded accordingly, rather than have con-tests as the obligatory prerequisite, where there is sometimes virtually no chance at all to win, ever (e.g. against the "specialist" breeds, for example, and other problems).

[Peter]

why can't you compare kobie? You just have to look up what the test includes!

You will never get the same disciplines in all countries for the simple reason that both landscapes and game are different from country to country.

on the other hand you have a point about entering working class, but now we were not talking about shows.

Yes Eva you are quite right, hunting for a weim is mainly searching for game and pointing (if you hunt for birds). that's the foundation of a good working weim.
once you have that it is quite obvious you also want your dog to be a good retriever.

[Kobie]

Excactly what I say Peter ;D
Some countries calls a contest for example a FT, but there are other disciplines to judge than we are used to.
Same like for example gaining a CACT, we only have it in field trials, some countries have it on watertests, or combi.
That makes it sometimes difficult to compare, special if you want to figure out what a dog is capable to.

Don't want to discus what is better or more difficult, but its just difficult to compare. For me at least !

[cummel]

First of all, also from Cummel and me: all the best with your new boy Homer, Leonor!

About hunting tests:
I agree, hunting tests will never be real hunting. This is not possible, because if they would, you could not compare the achievements of different dogs at all. Still we need tests with standardized situations to give each dog the same chance to show its hunting skills. Tests should be as close as possible to practice and cover all disciplines needed by hunters. Probably you can only compare on national level, no other thing to do than ask information. Personally I am very convinced of the HZP/VGP based tests, those are used in several countries besides Germany.
I think - in general - if you breed consequently only with dogs on HZP, even better: VGP level, the chance is very small to breed not good working dogs. And here comes my dream: Pick out the healthy ones with good character and try to pick the beautiful ones and you have your versatile dogs to breed with, I speak about dogs for the hunter market! Must be easy, I guess, hehe!
In Belgium the only test I know to have about HZP level is the HVV test (Hunting Association of Flanders). Field trials are close to practice as well, but cover only one part of hunting. But everybody is free to go to other countries to do other tests as well, of course.
The Belgian Weimaraner club does not have any demands of hunting results as condition for breeding. The Dutch club encourages breeders to do hunting tests with giving a certificate for litters with both parents having hunting results.
I think, a good thing would be a national law, that obligates to hunt only with dogs who have passed suitable hunting tests. In Germany it is like that, in Belgium not, don’t know about other countries.

[efica]

Hey Dorit! I totally agree with your opinion... I think that the VGP level is the one that is suitable for breeding conditions. And it contains all the elements of real hunting. And after all the origin of a weimaraner is Germany.

I think, a good thing would be a national law, that obligates to hunt only with dogs who have passed suitable hunting tests. In Germany it is like that, in Belgium not, don’t know about other countries.

In Slovenia we have the same rules like in Germany...Your weim has to pass the HZP or VGP if you want to hunt with it. And I think this is a good law.

Maybe we should move these debate, because this is Homer's topic

[Kobie]

I am also a big fan of doing all aspects of hunting, and its like Dorit says. HVV test in Belgium is the closest to the German HZP !

Pity we can't enter workclass on shows if we passed HVV. I think HZP counts in Holland, isn't it ?

;D ;D Yes, indeed, its Homers topic, so maybe we should move ;D

[alabama]

He's an upstanding young dog!! he's gorgeous, also I do love his father Bzyfeet American Idol. I wish you all the best with him. ;D

Karen
www.zilvereinweimaraners.com

[Fala Love'a]

For me, one of the strangest things is the fact that for example Belgian KC does not accept Trials/FCI working cert. obtained in other countries....also the fact that they accept only (belgian) FT result is untypical for us. Weim is a versatile dog , of course field is the most important thing for any pointing dog but we should care about all the other skills (retrieving, tracking ect). In most of the countries (PL, Chech Republic, Slovakia, Germany ect ect) varsatile trial is most respectable by breeders/judges.

p.s. Congrats on Homer's great 1st european show results

Cheers
M&K

[tasha]

Many congratulation on your new addition ;D

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I truely envy some of the tests you have in Europe at least you have the options for the type of hunting tests that you have we are sadly lacking those sort of tests in the UK, we do have Working Tests (mainly canvas dummies and not anything resembling a true hunt at all a trained zigzag pattern is often enough to win and your dog always get the same old ground as all the others before you where there has in majority never been any game in decades) where no real grades are given just a win if you do, not the dogs graded based on individual ability, certainly be hard pushed to see a gun at any of these events and FT's which few enter and even few gain a title in.

Our hunting doesn't resemble anywhere elses in the majority as all the birds are bred and released and are driven with very little need for a good HPR really.

I would love to see a proper graded hunting test develop here in the UK we have other disciplines but for breeding you need nothing more than a dog and a bitch