The Blue Story continues

[Jaeger]

It was last year that there was born a litter of bluw Weimaraner in our country. We found them cause they advertised with them on "Marketplace" with also pictures of the puppies. The Dutch Weimaraner club asked the Kennel Club to denie the litter a pedigree. However it was alredy to late and the litter had already recieved a original Dutch pedigree.
The Dutch Club did not agree this decision and went in dispute with the Kennelclub. End of the story was that two qualified judges of the breed should examen the whole litter and report back to the Kennelclub.
The outcome was that the litter was indeed "blue"and not according to the FCI standard "grey".
The Kennelclub than has withdrawn the pedigrees and they got new ones, with the remark "NOT APPROVED COLOUR".
This implicates that with this pedigrees it isn't allowed to breed. If they do, the litters from them will not get pedigrees andy more
A sad story for the lovers of the Blue's

[calla]

Two thumbs up for the Dutch Weimaraner club !!!!

Nadja

[Leslie]

Regardless of one's personal glee at the news, it is another case that demonstrates that a resolution needs to be found for Blues in Europe. It does no one any good to have them outside the umbrella of the infrastructure.

[anne]

I fear that what has happened in the US will happen in Europe if, as Leslie remarks, they are outside the umbrella of infrastructure. It has been demonstrated that in the US, the worded DQ of the Blues has not stopped breeding, and in fact breeding has deteriorated with Blues bred more for their novelty by most. By rejecting the Blues (that are already in Europe and being bred), the same situation will likely happen.

[Leslie]

Yes, by keeping them outside the FCI infrastructure you are forcing them to be "rare". You actually encourage the situation where people sell them only for profit with no checks for health or quality. While that can never be completely avoided in any breed, these people could not compete if they were up against ethical people who were selling for a fair price, with papers, with a contract, with health checks and preferably from parents who have been proven with titles.

I understand that you feel strongly that the beige gray is what a Weimaraner should be, but it's clear that there is also a strong appreciation for the "blue" gray. I think it's also clear at this point that just DQ'ing them won't make them go away.

I understand where the sentiment arises from, but it's time to move past a simplistic "team color - us against them" mentality and instead have intelligent conversations about how to responsibly handle the reality of this variation of Weimaraner that is on a fast train towards a disaster if actions aren't taken soon.

And while it's easy to say "you guys go make your own breed" this also forces the responsibility of a 63 year situation on the shoulders of a few. We all have a responsibility for this situation.

[tasha]

I'm afraid I think they stand a better chance if they are renamed a new club born and proper enthusiasts are given support to breed them, sadly Anne is right in that not being registered they will be bred as moneytrees by people who have no interest in dogs beyond what they can get for them in profit.... but I do not agree that they should be under the umbrella of the weimaraner as a breed.

There are times when I wonder if the owner of casar really knew the consequences of his breeding his dog. Something for us all to think about.

[Leslie]

Mar 27, 2009 19:27:42 GMT 1 tasha said:

but I do not agree that they should be under the umbrella of the weimaraner as a breed.

There are times when I wonder if the owner of casar really knew the consequences of his breeding his dog. Something for us all to think about.

Note: I did not specifically say they should be under the Weimaraner breed. I'm asking that the Weim community stop thinking of this situation as the BIG EVIL. There needs to be a shift to constructive thinking.

It's pointless to dwell on what should or should not have been done with Casar. He was used often because of the excellent qualities he transmitted to his off-spring.

[chiendog]

There needs to be a shift to constructive thinking.

This is key.


As an interested observer munching popcorn on the side, maybe I can offer some perspective on the whole Blue Weim debate. First off, we need to understand that it is an old debate in the US, but relatively new in Europe. While the intensity had died down for a time in North America, it has increased greatly as of late because blues are now being bred on the other side of the ocean. Finally, we should remember that debates surrounding accepted colour(s) are not new. They have made their way through a good number of breeds, including most of the continental pointing breeds at some point in their histories. In fact, this is actually the second time that a debate about colour has raged among Weim breeders. The first, which occurred around 1908, was not about blue coats but about yellow markings that sometimes occurred in certain lines. As result of the debate the word “silver-grey” was dropped from the name of the “The Club for the Pure Breeding of the Silver-Grey Weimaraner Pointer” due to the fact that yellow occasionally occurred in the coat and that, while it was not be encouraged, dogs with yellow markings could be used for breeding if they were outstanding field performers.

But back to the blues…

In terms of an eventual resolution (or not), let’s look at the various options:

1. Status Quo. Nothing changes, Blues remains in limbo. Back yard breeders of "rare" blues continue to make quick bucks and grey breeders either ignore them or continue to treat blues as if they were lepers bred by members of Al Queda.

Unfortunately, this is the most likely scenario, simply because it is the easiest. It costs nothing to do nothing. It takes very little effort to belittle the blues. All you need is access to a computer and an axe to grind. Finally for some people, mainly those who've swallowed large quantities of the "purebred" cool-aid, an intoxicating mix of righteous indignation and shodenfreud provides them with a twisted sense of satisfaction. They simply revel in hurling holy water at what they perceive as the Devil’s blue spawn.


2. The German club takes a decision similar to that which was taken in 1908. They simply acknowledge that the blue exists, restrict the coat/color score to no more than “good” but allow blues to be bred into grey lines if they prove to be outstanding field workers. This is an eminently sensible thing to do, and could be based on the 1908 precedent. However, the chances of it every happening are exactly zero. The German club is a rigid monolith today and is struggling to keep the breed out of the hands of non-hunting breeders in Germany. The club has a hard enough time even allowing the breeding of LH to SH weims among the good breeders. Asking them to open the studbook to blues would be like asking them to open it to red foxes. And even if, by some miracle, they did allow blues into the club, finding an outstanding blue field performers is harder than finding brass monkey's bollocks. So finding one, testing one and then allowing it to breed would be like hitting a golf ball to the moon and sinking a hole in one with a 9 iron.

3. A new breed and breed club are founded. Again, this would not be something new. The Langhaar/Munsterlander folks did it. The Picardy and Blue Picardy people did something similar.

So there is a tried and true formula for establishing a club and a new breed. But it is difficult. In fact, it is probably much more difficult to do nowadays than it was 100 years ago. There are big $$ involved and lots and lots of time required…probably on the order of 10-20 years. But the biggest difficulty would be to somehow develop a consensus among all the blue supporters. Like those that fancy the grey, they are mainly non-hunters, mainly interested in the looks of the breed, and pretty well convinced that the sun shines out their dogs’ ass. Other than those points in common, they are as diverse a group as can be.

4. Go your own way. The main issue we are dealing with is trying to fit a square peg (blue weim) into a round hole (the existing purebred dog world structures). Why not dispense with it all. Forget the AKC, forget the FCI and go the way sled dogs have gone. Breed good hunting dogs. Period. Breed healthy hunting dogs. Period. Breed and exchange them with other hunters and HUNT WITH THEM.

Let the club folks continue the endless circle jerk of "improving" the breed. Go your own way, build a better Blue and see who shows up each morning in the hunting field ready to take on the day!


I am sure there are other scenarios and sub-scenarios to explore, but in a nutshell that is how I see it. Of course, your mileage may vary.

[Leslie]

Ah Craig, I wish I had your gift with the pen. How you can manage to entertain, insult just about everyone, inspire, discourage, and pretty much tell it how it is all at the same time is a delight. ;D

[Leslie]

I'm still rolling on the floor laughing.
Be back in a minute, (I have to go check to see if the sun is still shining out of Ellie and Bella's Asses.)

[daniela]

This is too good. Where's the "share on facebook" link?

Craig, are you the Charlie Brooker of dogs?

[chiendog]

Glad you enjoyed it!

And thank you Daniela for the compliment. I actually had to look up who this Charlie Brooker fellow is, but I'm glad I did. His columns are great!

Maybe once I am done my book project, I will turn to ranting on my blog about dogs à la Brooker.

[daniela]

He writes for the Guardian newspaper on Mondays and Saturdays. Monday’s column is more of a ‘what’s on his mind’ piece (which could be anything from his hatred of parties, people, and/or genuinely anything or anyone that has crossed his path in the preceding week). Saturday is his Screen Burn column at which he takes a wry look at what’s on the TV.

This was one of my favourite columns:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/01/2

I don’t think there have ever been so many comments at the bottom of one of his articles. Some people took it in the spirit it was intended, others thought he needed a little pep talk but mainly, more were concerned he was not right in the head and therefore, should seek help immediately or do himself in.

Personally, I found that particular column hilarious - and the well meaning comments, even more so.

He also has his own TV show over here: Screen Wipe and only this week, News Wipe. His stuff is usually broadcast on one of our BBC niche channels but he is coming to prominence more and more. His TV work, Screen Wipe, amongst other things, can be found on YouTube. Screen Wipe may not really be universal as it mainly takes a look at British TV but one segment of the episodes you may find enjoyable, is here:

The Screen Wipe Guide to TV

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXOPIbb8ZjA

[anne]

Excellent post, Craig.

we need to understand that it is an old debate in the US, but relatively new in Europe

I think that the Europeans can learn a lot by taking a look at what happened to these dogs in the US. Granted, the registration and breeding rules are quite different, but I think it should be clear that when the WCA DQd a color that was already around for decades, and bred, it did not make the variety go away but in essence "made" the dogs worse since many of the "good" breeders abandonded the color. This is not a matter of someone's whim to create a new color to market and exploit, the color has been an integral part of the breed's history. As Sylvia will confirm, Casar von Gaiberg is in close to 100% of today's Weim's pedigrees, not only in the US but around the world.

Personally, I just don't see what the big deal is. Since it's dominant, those that don't prefer it, don't have to have it. It's really just that simple. Yes, I do have respect for type and that for many the color is a key characteristic of the dog; however, I think everyone understands and acknowledges the Blue Weim as a WEIMARANER. I have never heard of anyone saying that Blues are any different except for the color. It's already accepted that Weims come in 2 colors, just like it's accepted in the US that they come in 2 coat lengths even though the LH (stupidly) is DQ'd here.

[daniela]

Finally, we should remember that debates surrounding accepted colour(s) are not new. They have made their way through a good number of breeds, including most of the continental pointing breeds at some point in their histories. In fact, this is actually the second time that a debate about colour has raged among Weim breeders. The first, which occurred around 1908, was not about blue coats but about yellow markings that sometimes occurred in certain lines. As result of the debate the word “silver-grey” was dropped from the name of the “The Club for the Pure Breeding of the Silver-Grey Weimaraner Pointer” due to the fact that yellow occasionally occurred in the coat and that, while it was not be encouraged, dogs with yellow markings could be used for breeding if they were outstanding field performers.

Internet connections must have been a nightmare back then.

I wonder what kind of usernames they would have used.

[Jaeger]

You have to convince the Germans to accept. They made up the standard for the FCI.
But what I read in their magazine and already wrote , they don't accept the blue and they are very stubborn and protective.

[tasha]

I think the Americans are very used to having this old argument but for the rest of us well thats just not the case and not to be rude we don't all want to just accept it because the states do most people I have spoken to that have been in the breed for a while want those inported to the UK irradicated and the lines to die out, its definitely a minority not a majority interest and in this case the majority is the ruling factor... you'll be hard pushed to find people who in general accept the blue as part of the breed away from the states especially as there are so many that don't even accept them there.

The only reason that casar is in so many pedigrees is because of the US exporting dogs to other countries and those dogs bred then being exported to Europe from the UK for example with people not knowing enough about the pedigrees prior to breeding, they saw a grey dog not a blue dog bringing in new blood some of which were used profusely at stud in virtually the whole population.

Until a couple of years ago when sites like Sylvia's became available so people could trace their dogs pedigrees beyond the 5 generation pedigree most of the breeders I know of that I asked in the UK about the history of the breed would have denied all knowledge of casar or any blue dog being part of their dogs pedigrees beyond a piece of american history, not so easy now with information being so readily available but there are still lots in denial.

Your not going to convince the Germans if you were you would have done so this time round enough time has passed and they want good working dogs, they made changes for the Longhair but have stuck to their guns about the blue maybe its time that fanciers just accepted that and got on with it. There does come a time when you have to stop flogging a dead horse.

[anne]

Tasha,
The Blues are already there. If you/your club wants to "quit flogging a dead horse" then so be it...it will not erase the fact that the Blues are there and are being bred. One can do something about it - or not - as Craig so eloquently pointed out. I'd just as soon go for his Option #4 myself. My point is though, that I think it is a mistake to not be supportive of a group that is trying to improve a breed or variety (or whatever) in order to stop the snowball effect of poor breeding. History has shown that a breed club that ignores a "problem" doesn't make that problem go away. Just my 2 cents that the Europeans can learn a lot from what Americans have been struggling with for decades -- whatever way the chips may fall.
Anne

[Jaeger]

Off course the Americans have been struggling and will be. I found in an English database a three generation pedigree from an American import bitch and on the pedigree the colour of this import was "Blue"
But what is the matter, the mother, grandmother and great grandmother were all "BLACK"
and all bred to silvergrey sires. So there are not only "Blue"but also "Black" Weimaraner
with a pedigree.

[Sylvia]

Well maybe they took over the info from the AKC pedigree?
The colours given at AKC pedigrees (Stud book) are not always right.
If we follow that colours we will have many nice colors. I have seen the most strange colors.
The colours in the stud book / pedigree, are colours given by the owners/breeders.
I also have seen black/tan? Weims, have seen Yellow weims?? Faune, Brown, black/white? So I do not trust the colours given by the AKC, and therefore will not put colours in the database from us.
Black can be given by the owners because the blue is coming from black?