|
Post by Jaeger on Aug 31, 2007 19:16:36 GMT 1
|
|
|
Post by daniela on Aug 31, 2007 19:49:42 GMT 1
so what would the benefit be to having the breed colour restricted if it does not remove these dogs from the register ?? Would be interesting to see a Blue British Show Champion... [Dashes out to get her devil’s advocate hat]. OK, so if you were to apply that theory to the rest of the breed standard, then what about all the other dogs out there who do not conform to the standard in one way or another?
|
|
|
Post by anne on Aug 31, 2007 19:59:40 GMT 1
I can't remember if in the states the differing colours stops them from being shown or not? Will have to read back through my notes. Technically, the dog can be shown. The judge would disqualify the dog in the ring, before being judged, just like he/she would disqualify a dog that is over or under the height standard (a DQ fault). There have been instances where someone goes into the ring with a blue and the judge does not disqualify. This is not what the judge should do. The most recent story I heard about this was that someone who had no clue that Blue was a DQ fault, got judged on a Saturday, took a class placement, then returned the next day and was disqualified. She apparently was very confused and I think may have argued a little bit. This is very sad. This is from the AKC's letter when they approved the blue DQ: "The dog show rules provide that when a dog has been disqualified under the standard for its breed, the dog may not again be shown until the owner has been notified by AKC that the dog's show eligibility has been reinstated. The owner of the disqualified dog, if he believes that his dog was improperly diqualified under the breed standard, may apply to AKC for the dog's reinstatement. When AKC receives such an application, a committee of experts is appointed to examine the dog and to make recommendations to AKC. This revision of the standard does not mean that AKC will cancel the registrations of blue Wiemaraners or refuse to register pure-bred blue Weimaraners in the future. The fact that a dog of any breed has a fault requiring it to be disqualified in the show ring, does not mean that it is ineligible for registration or that it is not a pure-bred dog of that breed. The judge alone decides whether the dog should be disqualified in the show ring, except that when a qualified person files a written protest with a Bench Show Committee, the decision is made by the Bench Show Committee. Either party involved in the protest may appeal to AKC from the decision of a Bench Show Commiteee. The color shown on a dog's registration certificate is not considered either by a judge or by a Bench Show Commitee in making such decisions. Weimaraner breeders who prefer the daker coat may continue to breed such dogs and to register them with AKC. They would, of course, be under some obligation to inform prospective buyers of blue puppies concerning their disqualifying fault under the breed standard, just as they would be concerning any other major fault. According to the best information available to AKC, the darker coat color can be eliminated ina few generations of selective breeding even when a blue coated dog or bitch is used in a the breeding program. There would therefore appear to be no reason to fear that the outstandingly good qualities of any blue dog or bitch could not be passed on to future generations of the breed without retaining the darker color."
|
|
|
Post by anne on Aug 31, 2007 20:02:00 GMT 1
so what would the benefit be to having the breed colour restricted if it does not remove these dogs from the register ?? Would be interesting to see a Blue British Show Champion... I always thought the breed standard was the basic guide line for the breeds set out between the governing body and the KC I didn't realise it was so ineffective. Thanks for clarifying it always makes interesting reading and it is a very interesting subject. It sounds like your KC is like the AKC. They are looking at parentage and concerned about whether dogs are purebred or not, they are not making value judgements about faults whether disqualfying, major or minor.
|
|
|
Post by anne on Aug 31, 2007 20:05:01 GMT 1
OK, so if you were to apply that theory to the rest of the breed standard, then what about all the other dogs out there who do not conform to the standard in one way or another? Exactly...... Some judges here put up dogs with obvious faults, sometimes even disqualifying height faults. The difference is that it doesn't take a trained eye to see the difference in color, it takes more knowledge to see other types of faults.
|
|
|
Post by anne on Aug 31, 2007 20:16:53 GMT 1
I ran this thru Babelfish, so didn't get a great translation but are these people saying that blues were the original color?
|
|
|
Post by marjolein on Aug 31, 2007 20:19:45 GMT 1
Yes. According to this owner, the Weimaraner used to be blue, until "we" started using it as a gundog. Apparently this person knows very little about the breed. He wants to make his non-pedigreed blue Weimaraner a show champion..... derrrr!!
|
|
|
Post by anne on Aug 31, 2007 20:23:06 GMT 1
Yes. According to this owner, the Weimaraner used to be blue, until "we" started using it as a gundog. Apparently this person knows very little about the breed. He wants to make his non-pedigreed blue Weimaraner a show champion..... derrrr!! Oh my..........
|
|
|
Post by Rachel on Sept 1, 2007 16:03:13 GMT 1
Very interesting reading guys. I think I can say yet again I have learned something new this week. I always say I learn something new every day. Rachel
|
|
|
Post by jai on Sept 2, 2007 10:48:21 GMT 1
Tasha as always the information you know is just mind blowing.. I have read with interest all the stuffyou and Daniela have gone back on.. As for the blue here in Germany, Wolfgang has not seen one in our district, and I am unclear really how all the German's feel about the blue, I may just open this can next week when we see each other again.. I do know that there is a special feed that is given to give the gray the tan colour for hunting season.. I have seen how brown Calli becomes and now she is getting back to some of her gray.
Les, thanks so much for the links, your dogs are beautiful and quite the performers. Have a great stay in the states.. chat soon, jai and falko
|
|
tasha
Proper addict
Posts: 1,109
|
Post by tasha on Sept 2, 2007 22:39:16 GMT 1
I like the subject of the blue its very emotive subject especially if people are not fully aware of their own dogs lines. To be perfectly honest if you go back far enough you will find in most pedigrees a dog that throws a long hair or a blue weimaraner because we've bred and exported offspring around the world. Have to admit like Daniela I do play devils advocate on this subject.
When you look at the lines closely (or at least as closely as you can on paper because you never really know the lines until you've seen and experienced them and thats impossible in the majority) they are terribly interesting.
I love history I just wish more people would share a bit about their dogs, Gillan Burgoin wrote a great book called the 'Ragstone Handbook' you can still get a copy through the Weimaraner Association I think and its the funniest thing I have read on the weimaraners, ok so its not PC certainly not now but still the best thing I've read on some of the dogs in Bonnies pedigree.
Its a pity in some respects up until recently the Blue issue wasn't really a question for the UK but these things do crop up and need to be sorted out quickly. Would definitely be interested in what the Germans really think about it.
Do the american register longhairs??? As they are not part of the standard I wondered certainly a question i thought about until recently.
|
|
|
Post by Sylvia on Sept 2, 2007 23:49:03 GMT 1
Do the american register longhairs??? As they are not part of the standard I wondered certainly a question i thought about until recently. Yes they Longhairs can be registered. And also can compete in different tests and trials. I have seen some Longhairs who passed the NAVHDA, and I think they are doing other things as well. And blues cannot be thrown out of greys because it is dominant. Longhairs can be thrown, this is a recessive gene. And I think there is no dog world wide who hasn't Casar in his pedigree. I know already that all German dogs nowadays (Long- or Shorthair) have Casar behind for the ones interested.....
|
|
|
Post by Steve Graham on Sept 3, 2007 3:53:09 GMT 1
Do the americans register longhairs??? As they are not part of the standard I wondered certainly a question i thought about until recently. The American Kennel Club (AKC) is the largest and most important, but not the only registry in the U.S. Whether a dog conforms to a standard has nothing whatsoever to do with registration with the AKC. The AKC will register any offspring of parents that are either AKC registered or otherwise meet registration requirements. Moreover longhaired Weimaraners may compete in any AKC activity (field, obedience, agility, etc.) EXCEPT the show ring.
|
|
|
Post by djinn007 on Sept 3, 2007 8:18:30 GMT 1
Very interesting discussion.
I have a very big part of the genealogy of my dogs => some pedigrees till 1946 for the german line of my first weimaraner Twiggy. It is very funny to search all over the world for parents, ... I know that some of those ... parents have given longhairs lines in Australia. I have also find others parent lines in the US and of course in Europe, Germany but also in Sweden, Norway, ...
As I breed for 10 years now, I choose dogs with different grey colours and today my lines can give grey silver, mouse grey & grey deer and all the colours between from dark to light (but not too light because I don't like it and I don't choose too light dogs to reproduce). I prefer dogs pigmented.
With one of marriage a little bit more than 2 years ago, I married a grey mouse female with a "special mix brown- grey" male from Holland but with german origins and it has given to me very pigmented puppies. I have kept one : my male Djinn. He is dark grey with blue and brown reflects. Best grey colour in Winter. When you see him besides other weimaraner, you see very well the difference. During the summer, with the sun, he is a little bit more dark brown-grey but still dark grey besides other ones. Very special colour but I like it very much. In Shows, no problem, he is now Double Champion + Belgian Winner and he has nearly achieved another championship. He gives to his puppies very beautifull colours, well pigmented / or give again pigment to the other lines. People who has used him are very happy about the colours of their puppies.
I follow with interest some breeders in France that have blue weimaraners (Leslie, but at the moment she is in the States and more recently Christelle. She has just imported a blue puppy from the States, a little male coming from best hunting lines. I will follow him at hunting and field carreer. I cross my finger for this little blue and will see the reaction of people about him).
|
|
|
Post by daniela on Sept 3, 2007 20:31:38 GMT 1
I love history I just wish more people would share a bit about their dogs, Gillan Burgoin wrote a great book called the 'Ragstone Handbook' you can still get a copy through the Weimaraner Association I think and its the funniest thing I have read on the weimaraners, ok so its not PC certainly not now but still the best thing I've read on some of the dogs in Bonnies pedigree. I am also a great fan of Gillian Burgoin’s handbook – so much so I think I have two copies floating around. The stories about Georgie are my favourite. When I was growing up, my family had a Georgia, and by the sounds of things, she was similar to Georgie in character. One of Georgia’s favourite pastimes was routing around for the odd sock – if it had been worn, then even better as far as she was concerned. On occasion, I would find her munching away in the corner somewhere and as I would approach her, she would glare at me as if to say, “it’s mine” and gobble it down like it was her last meal. She actually passed a sock at a dog show much to the mortified child who watched in horror as the elongated sock made its way out of her system. Eventually we got wise to it and everything was put out of sight or locked away. Thankfully, she never had to have surgery as a result of her peckish behaviour but she taught us a valuable lesson. Within days of getting Georgia home, I actually thought she was having a fit – she was foaming at the mouth and finding it hard to swallow. I ventured into the unknown, opened her mouth and stuck my hand in to see if there was any blockage. Sure enough, stuck to the top of her mouth was a bar of soap. From there on in, liquid soap was a godsend but she was undeterred and I would often wake up in the early hours of the morning to the sound of her paws clicking around the bath eyeing up what she could steal. One of her other greatest passions were footballs. She stole one once from some boys who were playing a friendly over the fields. I am not quite sure how I ever got her to surrender it, she was intent on having it all to herself and I think between the boys and myself, we spent about 30 minutes trying to get it off of her. I was so embarrassed I don’t think I ever went back there. She was such a character, great with other dogs and children but she was stubborn to the core and a total thief. I miss her greatly, and it’s no wonder that she actually came back to my family for re-homing because her former owners could just not cope with her.
|
|
|
Post by djinn007 on Sept 4, 2007 8:53:21 GMT 1
In Belgium, in our pedigrees the colour is the same for every weimaraners (long or short coat): "Grey" thus no specification concerning silver-grey, grey-deer or mouse-grey.
The colour "grey" includes all the colours from light to dark grey. It is specified in the Official Standard : all shades of grey from light to dark colours.
Major colours of Weimaraners are coming from a dilution of brown, except the Blue that is coming from a dilution of black. It is the only difference and that create lots of discussion about the Blue. But in the facts, the blue is also a dark grey, from dark to light, so .... for me, why not a Blue ?
In Belgium, most of the weimaraners are either mouse-grey or grey-deer (from light to dark) and very few silver-grey. People in Belgium like in general the pigmented dogs.
In France, it is the contrary, most of people like the lighter colours. The major colour in France for weimaraners is grey-deer (from very light to dark but very few dark in comparison with the light colours). There are very few mouse-grey and still more rare silver-grey.
It depends on the way of selection for breeding.
|
|
|
Post by Sylvia on Sept 4, 2007 10:21:34 GMT 1
In Belgium, in our pedigrees the colour is the same for every weimaraners (long or short coat): "Grey" thus no specification concerning silver-grey, grey-deer or mouse-grey. But the registrations give specific colours, I have many Belgoum stud book pages from 1974 onwards to present. And I see Silver-, Roegrey etc showing up. This is not what is written in the standard, the standard says. "Silver, roe or mouse grey, as well as shades of these colours. " Which means they do not talk about the colour blue, or dark grey. As well as they do not talk about a fault as blue Weimaraner.
|
|
Kobie
Proper addict
Xena, warrior princess
Posts: 1,027
|
Post by Kobie on Sept 4, 2007 16:53:42 GMT 1
In Belgium, in our pedigrees the colour is the same for every weimaraners (long or short coat): "Grey" thus no specification concerning silver-grey, grey-deer or mouse-grey. But the registrations give specific colours, I have many Belgoum stud book pages from 1974 onwards to present. And I see Silver-, Roegrey etc showing up. If we do today the paperwork to get our puppies pedigrees, I always write "Grey" as their coat color... This is what the puppies pedigrees says, as I receive them from our kennelclub. So what you write on your application form, is what you get, I think .. Maybe if I try to fill in "Silver-Grey" next time, we could see if St Hubertus accept it
|
|
|
Post by anne on Sept 4, 2007 18:43:18 GMT 1
To be perfectly honest if you go back far enough you will find in most pedigrees a dog that throws a long hair or a blue weimaraner because we've bred and exported offspring around the world. Tasha, As has already been pointed out, a blue cannot be "thrown." "Thrown" implies that it comes from a recessive trait. Blue is "what you see is what you get." If neither parent is blue you can't have blue puppies. It would never pop up as a surprise, like a Longhair might in a SH-SH breeding. Sorry to be nit-picky but the blues have been lumped together quite often with the LH issue in the US, and MANY breeders tend not to realize that blue is a simple dominant trait. In the US, the reason the LH's were not accepted is that people feared that the recessive factor would pop up unexpectedly. The blue issue somehow got lumped together wtih LH's when both were being discussed, both got disqualified at the same time. It was actually in the standard for a long time that blues (and LH's) were an "undesirable recessive trait" which of course is incorrect. Anne
|
|
|
Post by anne on Sept 4, 2007 18:46:00 GMT 1
If we do today the paperwork to get our puppies pedigrees, I always write "Grey" as their coat color... This is what the puppies pedigrees says, as I receive them from our kennelclub. So what you write on your application form, is what you get, I think .. Maybe if I try to fill in "Silver-Grey" next time, we could see if St Hubertus accept it It used to be that AKC would let you write in a color on the registration papers as well, which is probably why in the old pedigrees you see all sorts of weird colors noted. Now, we have to choose, "gray," "silver gray," or "blue" Personally I think they should just drop "silver gray." I register all my grays as "grays."
|
|