Line breeding or outcross

[marjolein]

How do you feel about this?
I don't really like linebreeding. I know you'll intensify all the good things mom and dad have, but I think you'll also intensify the bad things, which might be hidden.
I also know when you decide to outcross, you'll never know what you get. My first litter was an outcross. I think all the 4 dogs and the one bitch are very good specimens of the breed. But the litter wasn't really an unity.
What do you think? And if you think I'm not talking sense here, explain please!!!!!

[Irena]

I think if I was breeding I would love to linebreed, but I would have to study the pedigrees and acquire knowledge of the ancestors basically in terms of any genetic diseases...

Anyone else would like to share their thoughts?

[Sylvia]

The most who so linebreeding are doing that to see the good and the bad things of both parents.
Medical problems and other things can be seen there very fast. If both parents have faults and carry them with them you can have an explosian of that when it comes out.
I don't like linebreeding as well, because I also have read and seen that the linebreeding isn't that healthy as well.. The same as with people of course, it is not good to do linebreeding over and over in the blodlines

[Alkemist]

My first and only litter was an outcross of sorts - there were some duplications of individual dogs, and both dam and sire were linebred. The puppies are outstanding, all 4 pups shown qualified for Crufts on their 1st outing, and my pup qualified at all of his shows! But then disaster - he was diagnosed with a mast cell tumour and he was seriously ill. He recovered from this to go to crufts and get a third place, and qualify for Crufts again, but we gave up showing when I was expecting and we haven't tried since. A second pup in the litter now has a mast cell tumour and so I have decided that until I believe it's safe to do so I won't continue the only line that I have. (I have seen some really nice puppies advertised on here but I think I'm too late for them - not a bad thing really I suppose).

I think in the UK (and this is my own opinion, and not derogatory to any breeders at all) the gene pool is narrowing substantially, as a lot of people use the same currently fashionable dog, or prefer to use a specific kennel only for their breeding programmes. It is a good thing to line breed occasionally to keep type and consistency, but it shouldn't be that every litter in your plan is linebred, and closely linebred at that.....

Nina and Jensen

[Irena]

Wow Nina, I really like your way of thinking! Thanks for sharing your ideas.

As to the pups, you never know, all kinds of things happen and people back out at the very last moment, so you never know till you ask! I hope we will get more people to post about their available litters on here, too.

[syrinx]

In Australia, I think it is hard to find an outcross. Almost all the dogs here are related as there have been lots of imports from the USA, mainly from the one kennel, or not far from it. My longhair girl has outcrossing back in her pedigree, as her grandfather was an A.I. puppy, father was Eng Sh Ch Pondridge Practical Joker. Then there was line breeding, and I pretty much outcrossed her to my Phantom. The litter was only of 3, one still born, one smooth and longhair, so it is very hard to judge the litter. But as far as head goes, they are quite similar as they are in length of body. I am thinking that the next generation will show me what I have really got. I am going to go back to the father's line next time. I don't like close line breeding, I think we have too many things that we may not understand as far as health goes, unless we know all the dogs and history very well.
Wendy

[silvestre]

In my experience line breeding means one thing to one breeder and another thing to a different breeder. To me it means useing dogs that have common relatives. To other people it would mean breeding grandfather to grandaughter etc.
I have never gone that close, but have done common ancestors, so far its worked very well as I get type of dog that I like. When I outcrossed I had extremes of type. For me I look for a certain look, so line breeding works for me.

[pennywood]

I see that this topic is quite old, but I figured I would respond. :-)

I am a breeder from the U.S. and see advantages to both linebreedings and outcrosses. It totally depends on the dogs and of course their pedigrees. If you have a tightly linebred bitch, it makes sense to find an outcrossed male to breed to.

My mentor taught me to read pedigrees vertically, so that you can count the number of times a particular dog shows up on either side. I believe that if there are not common ancestors through the 4th generation, it is an outcross.

Many of the great dogs in the U.S. were products of outcrosses of dogs who were linebred. Jackie

www.angelfire.com/ct2/Pennywood/

[pennywood]

Add to the comment of a tightly line bred bitch...you can find a male that is also tightly line bred from other lines, but the resulting pedigree would be an outcross. Phew! Very complicated and not easy to find the right match. Sorry, this is a topic almost like religions and politics.

:-) Jackie

[marjolein]

pennywood said:

Very complicated and not easy to find the right match. Sorry, this is a topic almost like religions and politics.

:-) Jackie

Think you're right here Jackie.

[daniela]

Same topic but I was just wondering if anyone has the genetic definitions of outcross, line bred et al?

[pennywood]

Have to step out this afternoon, but when I get back, I will look it up in my Weimaraner Ways book. There are specific definitions there. jackie

[marjolein]

Weimaraner Ways was still on my desk b/c I had to look up something earlier. It's such a fantastic book!!!
Anyway, I cannot really find it in here, LOL!! It's still a good book though, hehehe.
Google found it however and here's the definition of inbreeding, linebreeding and outcrossing:

Outcrossing is the breeding of dogs with no common ancestors, usually within a five generation pedigree. Continual outcrossing is a method that is commonly used by breeders who have no real purpose in breeding dogs or by novice breeders. Occasionally it is employed by experienced breeders to bring in some needed attribute to their line. Though one hears about such things as hybrid vigour when outcrossing, the continual use of this method can be as dangerous as continual inbreeding as you are always bringing new genetic equations to the mix.

Inbreeding is the breeding of close relatives not separated by more than one generation, i.e, brother to sister, father to daughter. This method is used to concentrate good qualities in the line but may also concentrate bad qualities. Only the most experienced breeders should be willing to attempt this method and be willing to make possible hard decisions with respect to the resulting puppies. Continual inbreeding should not be done.

Linebreeding is a method that breeders will use to improve upon and try to eliminate structural and health problems from their dogs. It is the breeding together of dogs that have a well bred superior common ancestor who has attributes that the breeder is attempting to reproduce and improve upon in their own dogs. Things such as health, longevity of life, structure, movement and temperament of a dog that one is planning to linebreed on must be taken into account. Linebreeding is an attempt to concentrate the genetic contribution of an outstanding ancestor in the resulting offspring. As well once started one must continue the linebreeding process or all will be for naught

[daniela]

Thanks Marjolein.

Who is the author? I know there is a genetics book at work where this is explained also, it will be interesting to compare notes.

[marjolein]

I think it's pretty clear though, that the writer is against inbreeding and outcrossing. I do not necessarily agree with what he/she says here. I just wanted to point out the differences.

[syrinx]

I think it is great that this thread has opened up again, as this is probably the most important issue facing us as breeders of Weimaraners.
Genetic diseases are spread by the sharing of genes, and of course that is what we play with everytime we mate dogs.

I am on a Canine Genetics list, a few of the people on are population geneticists, all have an interest in dogs. Genetically speaking, there is no such thing as linebreeding. It is a term that breeders have come up with. Linebreeding is inbreeding, just the degrees differ. Outcrossing doesn't have to be random. I believe the word is phenotype - that means what we would call type. So what I have read on it talks about selecting for phenotype, not genotype - related dogs. I do have an e-book that one of the Drs sent me on genetics, and would be happy to send it to anyone who emails me to ask [e-mail] It sets things out clearly, for a beginner to understand, but does build from there. Many use breeding programmes that work out a figure for how inbred a dog or litter may be, and they keep it under a certain number. I don't know what that is, but I am starting to look at it as I want to use that. Many, I would think most, in Australia, go back to a brother/sister mating, and many descendants of them who were 'linebred'.

If you want a REAL look at your dogs pedigree, try doing a 10 generation pedigree. Many will be shocked at the amount of duplicated genes that their dog actually has. And remember that with breeding with shared genes, the risk of hidden nasty genes finding a match and popping up is increased. Such as Shaky Puppy Syndrome, which seems to trace back along certain lines. Fancy line breeding to that line and finding that in your litter? Of course that doesn't mean nasty things won't happen with an outcross, but statistically, the chances are somewhat smaller.
Just my opinion, and not always how I have seen things. The more I have looked into it, the more my thoughts have changed.
Wendy

[Irena]

syrinx said:

If you want a REAL look at your dogs pedigree, try doing a 10 generation pedigree.

That's just what I'm doing at the moment!

[greydove]

syrinx said:

In Australia, I think it is hard to find an outcross. Almost all the dogs here are related as there have been lots of imports from the USA, mainly from the one kennel, or not far from it.

Which imports do you consider are from the same kennel? news to me....and I don't see what Levi, Chip or Frankie have in common at all actually... (and I don't mean going back 6 generations!)

Narelle

[marjolein]

I totally agree with you Wendy. In Holland it is very difficult too, to find a complete outcross. And once you've found him (Digger), it's not working out, LOL. Anyway, I have a pedigree database which can calculate inbreeding percentages. It's fantastic!!!!!

[Kobie]

That would be very handy, Marjolein, the database. Is this programm on the net and accessable to everyone ?

I once saw Digger, what do you mean with no working out ? Is he not a total outcross to your bitches?