problem to show a dog with a docked tail

[Kobie]

Hi everyone,


We have a problem. Our male his tial is docked since birth. If we want to show him in Germany, we can only show him (and he will allowed to a German Intern. show) if we can prove that he is a practical hunting dog. Now I want to have his International Championship by showing him in Germany. He only got a FCI statement that he is allowed to show in working class. Is this enough ??! Maybe one of you have experience with this !
Cheers
Kobie

[marjolein]

I have never heard of this Kobie, so can't be of any help.
But as far as I'm concerned, they still dock in Germany, so I have no idea why they want some kind of certificate...
I think you might be confused by the regulations for showing a dog in the working class. You need that FCI form to be able to enter a dog in the working class.

[Kobie]

Thanks Marjolein for your quick reaction.
I know German people have a problem with foreign gundogs who's tail is docked. Tialdocked dogs are only allowed when he is property of a hunter.
We went with our female in November last year, and she was accessed to the show because her co-owner had a hunting licence. Otherwise she couldn't participate. Can you imagen, drive about 450 kms and then be refused for the show ! That's why I want to know this for sure, before I will inscribe our male to a show.
cheers !

[marjolein]

What a weird rule Kobie!! I have to go to Germany too, at the end of the year for our last CACIB.
But since I have a LH, no docking problems for me luckily.

[Sylvia]

It is indeed a very weird rule, why don't they look at the country the dog is coming from and if there was a dockinglaw or not on the date of birth??

[szarasfora]

Hi Kobie,
When we for the first time went with DOCENT (our docked male) to Berlin the anti-docking law in Germany hadn't come into force yet.
When we entered him the following year, we attached the "FCI statement that he is allowed to show in working class". We got a reply that they refused to accept the dog for the show and they attached a long answer from their local veterinary department. They did not ask weather Marek was a hunter or not. To tell the truth we did not understand a word in this document although we had a good translation! In addition they charged us 20 EURO for this "opinion"!!!!!!
We were very, very angry! Next year we went to Dortmund Show and we tried Berlin again. With Dortmund Show it was no problem because it was WW show, so nobody asked about docking. With Berlin show we just did not mark at the entry form that our dog is docked at all!
And...nothing happened....Noone asked a question!
Our friend showed her German Kurzhaar in Junior Class (without "hunting certificate at that age!) and there was no problem either.
I think that in case of weims judges at German show rings don't react at all, because all weims in German Weimaraner Club are docked.
One of our Polish friends bred his bitch to our stud. When the pups were born he called the president of German Weimaraner Club and asked him about docking. And the answer was: "dock your puppies !"
Bye,
Izabela
/Szara Sfora Weimaranes/

[Irena]

Wow, thanks very much for sharing your experiences with that! So maybe there is still hope, even though there doesn't seem to be much agreement between them on this issue anyway.

[szarasfora]

As far as I suppose one thing is German law that permits "hunting dogs" with docked tails to participate in a show, and the other thing is some local (land) veterinary regulation.
While entering the show-ground were checked by a vet but he only checked the dog's EU passport, not a tail.
Then on the showring nobody asked about tail. So we do not know who is in charge of checking these tails?
We had DOCENT's "hunting certificate" in the pocket and Marek had his hunting license. But nobody cared about it and nobody asked about the tail!
Maybe in case of dobermans, rottweilers or other breeds there is some checking at the ring but in case of german pointers (weimaraner and german kurzhaar, drathaar) nobody is interested.

When we were considering entering a German show we asked different people about this German animal protection law. But nobody was able to explain what "dog used for hunting" means?
And what to do when you want to show a puppy or a young dog, which hasn't obtained any "hunting certificate" yet because if its age!

Perhaps someone from Germany could help and explain the law?

[Kobie]

Well,

We showed last year a female in Kassel and we had to go immediately on the other site when they saw our dog was docked.
If we couldn't show any licence or documents, we could not enter that show.
This is a experience we had !!
Kobie

[szarasfora]

But were you allowed to show a dog? Did you have to show any documents? Did you have any problems at the showring or at the entrance?

All this German law is very strange and I really can't understand it. Well, I agree that entering a docked weim to a German show may be very risky. Besides you are always in stress whether you break some law or not?
Fortunately we do not have such problem in Poland...!

[germanweim]

hello kobie,
the german weim breeder (VDH) do still dock the tails, because they are forced to sell their dogs only to people with hunting degrees. other breeders are not allowed anymore to dock the tails, we do have a new law for the animal protection: no docking ears (thats already for a long time) and no docking tails when the dog got born after the 1.06.1998, only dogs used for hunting. if your weim is not used for hunting and you don't have a certificat, it could cost you a fee of 5000€! it is realy strange, but it should, i guess protect the german weims and this thing: only selling a dog to a hunter! if you like to show your dog in germany he has to have a certificat for huntinguse without a tail or a medical indication for docking the tail or you need a undocked tail dog for showing.
anyway, it is strange!
elisabeth

[greyflyte]

Hello Elisabeth, nice to see you here!!
Here in New Zealand Docking is still allowed but I dont know how long we will remain like this. There is a Bill before parliament to Ban Docking, it was presented earlier this year but put on hold till after the Election. Well the Election has happened and sadly the Govt is the same as before so I can see the Bill being brought up again soon. A very sad day.
I recently imported a bitch from Australia and she had her tail on. Well in the space of 10 days I had stood on her tail twice and rolled my office chair over it twice. I decided to have her docked as soon as possible at 12 weeks. The finished result is awful compared to docking as a baby.
Our Kennel Club does not have any rules about exhibiting of undocked dogs yet.
Cyd

[syrinx]

Here in Australia it is illegal to dock a puppy, but it is not illegal to own a docked dog, or show a docked dog. What the law means is that they really have to have proof. It is said that they have only 6 months to do something about it, so many people planned to dock the puppies, and just not show them until they are after 6 months old. But one person is being taken to court using evidence from their website! There is a review in our state this month, but I don't think anything will change.
Have people who live in countries where you cannot dock seen lots of tail damage?
Wendy

[Kobie]

Elisabeth,

Is a FCI workingclass certificate enough to enter a German Dogshow ??

It seems that the show in Kassel is very strikt, because we went to 2 other shows in Germany and had no problems at all, they even didn't check docked tails !!

[daniela]

Hi Wendy

Excuse my ignorance but does each state have its own government which means there is no outright decision for Australia as a whole?

If so, for those states that have had tail docking banned does the law read more or less the same across all those states or? For example, do some states ban tail docking and some states, tail docking and dewclaws or.....?

Sorry if these sound like dumb questions.....LOL

Also, how is the law 'policed'? Is that down to the state ministry of agriculture?

[indy]

syrinx said:

Have people who live in countries where you cannot dock seen lots of tail damage?
Wendy

No acctually I have never heard of in IRL. .. only rumers about it... and dogs that have had accidents at home beacause of their owners clumsyness tail + door is not allways a good combination

[fyreside]

I have recently had to have one of my show dog's tail amputated due to injury. When his tail is healed and we put him back in the show ring I will need to carry a letter from the vet stating that this amputation was done for medical reasons. This is in case I'm am queried by either a judge or government animal protection people who sometimes check the dog shows.

[Wetdog]

Isn't it strange that NO ONE who owns a breed that is tradionally tail docked supports banning?

They could care less about the problems that docking/not docking create for the people who love and work with the breeds.

I personally find it offensive to have people who neither own nor care about a breed accussing me of being an abusive owner because of my choice of breed.

[fialCo]

Actually I don;t understand it at all. How come that breed, which was docked since it was nartured, suddenly becomes an undocked breed.
I understand, some say it is cruel etc, but... If people created this or that, I think it should be so... Look at other breeds, schnaucers or dobermans, for me they look unnormal with having uncropped ears and undocked tails:(
I see even another advantage with docked tail - dog can't damage anything at home:) with it's uncontrolled tail:) I have friends which have an undocked rotveiler, so he goes everywhere and brakes everything at home with wagging his enormous tail:)
As I have written on the other topic, rumours go, that I will be not allowed to show my dog in shows:(

[jai]

Hi all.
Kobie how is your dog healing since the accident? I also live here in Germany and have heard many different things about tail-docking v not-docked. I am still confused with all of it as well. Especially since I am looking for another dog. Anyways, I met a woman the other day at the park and she had a weim who was 7 months with a docked tail. She got her bitch from a breeder in Darmstadt (ger) but I don't think she is hunting her. Maybe the rule fluctuates between cities as well. jai