Jumping up and biting clothes

[srxy]

My little wiem girl luvs to jump up on us when she sees us for the 1st time i the morning or when we get home in the afternoon. It's not like she's alone durnig the day, my mother looks after her while my fiance and i are at work. She still has her pup teeth so they often get hooked into our clothes when she jumps up and she's damages a lot of clothes and done serious damage to my arm as well....

we've tried the "ignore unwanted behaviour trip" and it hasn't helped. Any other ideas? She's a highly strung pup who is generally well behaved and a pleasure to have, i just really want to sort out the jumping issue....worried she's gonna keep this up even when she's full grown.

oh and BTW her brother doesn't jump...but then again he's generally more laid back and chilled

thanks in advance

[Irena]

I'd say she must be big enough already for you to be able to stick your knee out at the moment she jumps up? You can say something like "off" when you do that (should you need her to jump on you later on for some kind of sports or something), or you can say nothing at all but just sweet talk to her as you always do and meanwhile keep sticking your knee out every time she jumps up. She should get it VERY quickly, in my experience. It is not like you are punishing her, just showing her that this behaviour is undersirable because she will get knocked on the chest, but you are still not angry or anything with her - it is just the way it goes if she tries to jump up. Oh and EVERYONE in the family must be consistent and do that. With whatever dogs I've seen and had, it takes a couple of days of CONSISTENT training like this.

For biting, just hold her muzzle gently and firmly say NO or whatever you choose to say? And then you can distract her with a toy that she IS allowed to bite.

I'm sure others will have suggestions too!

[smokeybear]

Hi there, jumping up is an attention seeking behaviour and perfectly natural for a dog.

However for us it may well be inappropriate and so we need to show the dog what IS appropriate.

I prefer not to punish the dog because the dog is not being deliberately "naughty" etc, it just does not know the rules, and also, like children, dogs like any attention.

By raising a knee, not only are you punishing the dog but you are also inadvertently giving the dog the attention it seeks and so rewarding its behaviour, you are also not showing the dog what you would like instead so that it cannot learn a more desirable approach.

Also body contact is how dogs initiate play and so the dog may regard your raised knee not as a punisher but as an invitation to carry on.

So how to approach this in the most beneficial way for both dog and owner and everyone else?

Teach it an incompatible behaviour and reinforce the behaviour you DO want whilst ignoring the behaviour you do NOT want. This will mean that one type of behaviour will become stronger and the other one will become weaker.

If you are consistent, the jumping behaviors should change almost immediately. You will NOT have to step on his toes, bonk him on the head, holler "NO NO!" or add any kind of physical punisher to get the behavior you want.

You want to see the dog keeping four feet on the floor instead of jumping. Do not give any verbal attention to the dog either such as shouting NO

Remove all attention while the dog is jumping up on you or anyone else. Just turn your back on the dog, make no eye contact, don't reach down to pet it, don't holler, just totally turn into a tree and ignore the dog.
Watch closely from your peripheral vision, and the MOMENT your dog puts 4 paws on the floor, give him what he wants: attention, petting. Maybe a treat. You can use the clicker and CLICK the moment those paws hit the floor and stay there a few moments, then deliver a treat: again, deliver the treat while the dog has paws on the floor, don't let him jump up on you to get the treat.

Dogs are learning every moment of the day, whether we are teaching them on purpose or not. Dogs jump because they have been rewarded for jumping in the past. Remember, that even negative attention is attention, and something the dog covets.

So start by going out of your house and setting the dog up for success to learn what you DO want, rather than what you don't want. Take clicker and treats with you, and come back 10 minutes later.

Enter the door and when the dog jumps on you, ignore him totally. Turn your back. But the moment he stops jumping up, puts 4 on the floor, and looks up at you with confusion--MARK THAT MOMENT with a click and deliver a treat, and pet the dog, talk to the dog--give the attention it seeks.

Dog jumps back up, (he will), just repeat the process. Basically, you just never, never give the dog attention while it's doing the behavior you don't want.
And the same thing for guests. Instruct guests before they arrive to come it, ingore the dog, and don't even LOOK at the dog until his paws are solidly on the ground.

You may have to do several set-ups of this with friends who come to visit. But normally, this is so effective it takes just a couple of days to get it to be a new behavior.

The secret is consistency. If sometimes the dog is rewarded for jumping (gets the attention), then the behavior will become stronger. This is called "variable reinforcement" and it's a powerful thing.

It works like the slot machine: we put our quarters in though we know we won't always get a payoff every single time, but we have before, and we know we eventually will again, so we keep putting in those quarters.

Each time your dog successfully jumps up on you and you reinforce it, you are in effect greatly strengthening the behavior, just like the slot machine.
You will be amazed at how fast this works!
Now, once you have the dog remaining on the floor and not jumping, it's great to teach another behavior for him to do. Like "sit" or "go lie on your mat". You can even teach the doorbell's ring as a cue for performing that incompatible behavior. (incompatible with jumping up, that is!)


As for biting, please see the following link:
www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/berner1/bitestop.htm

HTH

[marjolein]

Well, I agree with Irena. I've seen too many not behaved dogs from the positive reinforcement method. I think this method only works when you know what you're doing or when you're monitored by a trainer.
I always give them the knee too, and they learn within days that jumping is a big no no. Of course you should never hurt your pup, just make sure he learns jumping is not very comfortable.

[Sylvia]

marjolein said:

Well, I agree with Irena. I've seen too many not behaved dogs from the positive reinforcement method. I think this method only works when you know what you're doing or when you're monitored by a trainer.

I can agree with this, I trained Vidar totally positive from the beginning, and I came far with it.
But it is very hard to do it right, and for people who don't have the knowledge at all it is to hard to tell it in the letters of the internet to do and not to do.
And the things we train (also hunting) there in it isn't possible to train total positive, you come for things you can not ignore or come through with the positive learned NO.

[Sylvia]

A possitive trained dog will not say it will never get a correction. See above, you come for things you can't do the positive way.
There comes a day they dog MUST follow up the commands there is no way out again.
To start you let the dog choice, but when he gets older there is no choice left.
And if a dog is chasing a hare it is selfrewarding you can not ignore that or try to train out with the positive NO.
Or the day he thinks that he can go for an extra round to some people who doesn't appreciate that...

There are people saying than the dogs doesn't know the command yet.
Well they for sure DO KNOW the command but don't want to listen that moment.

The manner of how hard you have to correct depends on the dog. Some already can be corrected by only making yourself big and walking in the direction of you dog.
Others need more...

Well the treat wasn't started about positive training, and I can talk more about it if I want...

[smokeybear]

I can only speak for myself and for other extremely successful dog trainers whose dog have competed at the highest levels in Working Trials, Agility and Obedience and have won CCs in these sports.

We have not found it necessary to use positive punishment in our training.

But I do agree that many people do not have the skills, tools knowledge or importantly, the patience to train their dogs in this manner

It is, as a previous poster suggested, much easier and simpler for the handler to raise the knee.

[marjolein]

smokeybear said:

I can only speak for myself and for other extremely successful dog trainers whose dog have competed at the highest levels in Working Trials, Agility and Obedience and have won CCs in these sports.

That's the issue Allyson, we're just normal peeps and I for one am not capable of competing at these levels. Not because my dogs are not good enough, but because I'm not good enough. So stop judging people because they're not capable enough. I'm trying the best I can, but sometimes it's just not enough.

I think the best way of learning something is making the mistake yourself. Imagine your parents telling you over and over again, that that heater is hot and shouldn't be touched. Or even ignoring results in the kid touching the heater one day. From that day on, he won't touch it again. Although you cannot compare kids and dogs, I strongly feel this method is the best for dogs too.
I do not opt for the easiest option just like that, unless I can't think of another way of solving the problem.

[Sylvia]

smokeybear said:

We have not found it necessary to use positive punishment in our training.

I mostly use the negative punishment.
Learned the NO with a treat in my hand and say NO and clos my hand.
So that is my "positive" learned NO.

But I do agree that many people do not have the skills, tools knowledge or importantly, the patience to train their dogs in this manner

It is, as a previous poster suggested, much easier and simpler for the handler to raise the knee.

Well it is quit human that sometimes people get irritated, and I think there is NO one in the world who sometimes get irritated of things, and out of impulse you react on the dog.
It is not good, you may not do it, but it happens.

And I think it is a different to train obedience on a field than train your dog everywhere else to let them listen.
I see it very often that they listen perfect on the field, but when you walk the dogs in the woods you see different dogs.
What you learn in the agility and the obedience is to have fun with you dog. It is a kind of play which the dogs like as well.
But in real life it is nog always fun and a play.

And sometimes it is better that something has a more negative impulse then the fun of doing it. As an example, dogs who ran over the street because they see a cat. Well if I chose then for a negative impulse (positive punishment) because when there comes a car my dog can be gone.
So I think this are all things to think about, what do you want and expect from your dog.

I prefer the positive training method. For the obedience stuff I always use it, you get great results with it. For example the following, the dogs which learned following the positive way look different then the ones who learned it with a correction.

But I also get sometimes irritated, for example if my dog pulse me forward for 10 metres. Well I can tell you I will be irritated and the dog will know that, and of course it comes because I loose my control. But it is quit human.

[Sylvia]

Maybe nice to see.
Vidar who is trained the following totally positive.
You see he is looking up to me, watching, waiting till his rewarding comes.



Shena and Vidar both.


sittin in front of me, and nose to my hand for the treat

[smokeybear]

Lovely pictures .

You are quite right, there is a big difference between an "obedience" dog and an "obedient" dog. With the right training dogs will learn to exert self control and be obedient.

There are lots of pet owners who only require "basic" manners from their dogs and who are complete beginners who have achieved what they wanted from their dogs using only positive training

I am not juding anyone and of course Mar you are right, about telling the dogs over and over again, this is the joy of positive reinforcement, you never have to say anything twice

Dogs learn in a constructive manner by cause and effect, and they are not dissuaded from trying which is the effect you get by using punishment. They learn that inappropriate behaviour will not result in what they want. They do not learn that if they do X they will get positively punished, they learn that if they do X they will not get what they want or it will be removed from them.

Hence learning is not inhibited as we know punishment inhibits learning in both animals and humans.

Also we get dogs that are full of initiative and ready to try their hand at anything, and they are more fun to live with although often more demanding

[marjolein]

But Sylvia, I don't really think you get my point. Yes, I do train my dogs in a positive way, especially when it comes to basic obedience. I think it's quite easy to teach a dog to heal, sit, stay, stand etc., close by or even further away. I always train this in a positive way, unless they decide to bog off. My dogs can heal like that too, easily.
This discussion is not about the basics, but about the little "annoying" things they can do.

[arielskennels]

OK, so today is Oct 3 and I just found this thread... But I really do want to add my 2 cents if it is worth the money... LOL!

OK, in all seriousness.. I am not sure what you are talking about "positive punishment"? To me this is no better than a double negative.. confusing!

In a 'pack' of wild dogs.. (for example.. just bear with me) the Alpha dog will bite and be extremely mean to the one that is 'annoying' him. He will throw him to the ground until the unruly dog submits and stops whatever he/she is doing.. I use this method in my training because my dogs need to know that I am the Alpha and I will NOT tollerate unruly behavior. It is all in the tone of voice.. I growl and scorn my dogs if they are jumping on me, biting me, or not doing what I know they can do.

Treats?? HAHAHAHAAA, I laugh at people that use treats on 'hunting' dogs.. agility, obedince trials, fine.. but not to hunting dogs. By that I mean dogs that will be used to hunt game and not just 'have fun inside a building or on a play time field. What happens if you run out of treats and then the dog figures this out? You will not get the same reaction that you get if you trained him if he is good he gets a treat! Children are just like dogs.. ALL AGES! If your child goes to touch a hot fire or a hot stove, your immediate reaction is to yell at him not to do that b/c you are afraid that he will be seriously injured.. same goes for a dog that wants to bite and jump... you immediate reaction is to "yell" or punish the dog because you don't want to be hurt.

I have trained a lot of dogs not to jump on thier owners in my time and I am sure that I will do more as the time goes on.. The way that gets through to them the fastest is when they jump, growl at them very loudly and pop them on the nose. When they are on the ground, reward the good behavior with a pat on the head and a soft voice of praise. They will understand the growling faster than you turning away and ignoring the problem. If you ignored your child touching the stove, then you could be looking at 3rd degree burns on his hands and the pain associated with that... Ignoring is not always the answer. But, to take it back to nature with a dog...

OK, for example.. everyone has seen a litter of puppies grow from birth.. think about what the mother dog does when the pups jump up on her and she does not want that.. she growls and nips them. They immeditaly get off of her and leave her alone for 30 seconds or so and then she keeps doing that becuase they are irrating her.. eventually the pups leave her alone for a while becuase they do not want to be growled at or nipped. You obviously can not nip the pup/dog but to pop them on the top of the nose is about the same thing.. all while growling at them...

Let me tell a small story.. I had a gentleman that was getting up in his years purchase a pup from another breeder. He brought the pup to me at the age of 9 months. This pup (Riley) was so unruly that it was not funny. He took the dog to obedience classes and to 2 other trainers before me. The gentleman knew that the dog knew the commands that he had been taught because he did them SOMETIMES. The dog was taught with treats for good behavior and ignorance for bad behaviour. When Riley came to me, he had absolutley no manners what so ever. After I growled at him twice he respected me and it only took me 1 week to get him to mind the way that his owner wanted him to. Then I took the owner and showed him what he needed to do to get his dog to do what I had him doing. He could not have been happier and no one had even mentioned that method to him. It really is simple and easy to do. Everyone in the world is able to growl loudly and thump.

This way you are not at risk to cave your dogs chest in by kneeing him/her, nor is the dog wanting to jump up or nip or bite because it is his nature to learn in this process..

I hope that everyone understands what I am talking about!

Melissa

[anne]

"Positive punishment" is an operant conditioning term. Skinner was one of the behaviorist/scientists that developed. Skinner thought that an animal learns and changes behavior based on stimuli (that you give). Technically positive means, you ADD something. So, postiive punishment is that something Bad is started/presented in response to the behavior. What you describe - growling/scolding - in reaction to behavior IS positive punishment.

All animals learn by operant conditioning, even humans. It is especially beneficial to dogs and other animals that can't communicate by words because it gives clear associations of action and consequence. Operant condition is the basis for clicker training and other positive methods. Instead of positive punishment, they use mostly positive reinforcement.

Examples of operant conditioning:

Something Good can start or be presented, so behavior increases = Positive Reinforcement (R+)
A treat is given every time the dog sits. In clicker training an association is made between the click and treat therefore the dog learns to respond to the clicker (or a word like "Good") instead fo the treat.

Something Good can end or be taken away, so behavior decreases = Negative Punishment (
Puppy bites and nips at you in play, you leave the room until he settles down.

Something Bad can start or be presented, so behavior decreases = Positive Punishment (P+)
Kneeing in the chest when a dog jumps on you.

Something Bad can end or be taken away, so behavior increases = Negative Reinforcement (R-)
Force fetch training. Ear is pinched until the dog takes the dummy in its mouth. As soon as the dog what you wants the punishment ends.

[anne]

<<What happens if you run out of treats and then the dog figures this out?>>

Then you aren't using operant conditioning techniques correctly.

[marjolein]

anne said:

So, positive punishment is that something Bad is started/presented in response to the behavior. What you describe - growling/scolding - in reaction to behavior IS positive punishment.

Thanx for explaining that Anne. I always thought, positive punishment was ignoring bad behaviour...