e-collars

[syrinx]

I know through reading that a lot of people in the States us the electric collars for bird training. They are illegal here, as are those underground fences, as the RSPCA have decided they are cruel. Do they use them in Europe? How important are they? How hard is it to do What-ever-they-use-them-for without one? I am going to start with a very eager, partly started, very strong willed boy.
Wendy

[smokeybear]

Personally I cannot see any reason why anyone would need to use an e-collar to "train" a dog.

If a person cannot train a dog to a very high standard without resorting to pain then I think it demonstrates a lack of skill, knowledge and experience and also patience, the latter of which is the most important quality in any dog training IMO.

All you need to do to get a dog to work for you successfully is to get the dog to want to do what you want it to do, rather than punishing it for the "wrong" behaviour.

I like to think that I am in partnership with my dogs and that we achieve the results we do because the activity is enjoyable for both.

I care about my dogs and I have never found the need to use pain to control them, I would never knowingly hurt those I love..............

My dogs have been pretty successful in a number of disciplines and I would venture to say that I have had one or two very "strong willed" dogs

[marjolein]

I wouldn't be use an e-collar, unless there is no other solution. I do use it though, for chasing hares.

[anne]

There are other applications for e-collars besides delivering pain, although that is how the majority of people use them.
The best field trainers IMO use them as an extension of a checkcord/longline when the dog is far away with very low stimulation. And as a command, not an adversive.

[Leslie]

I was very reluctant to use an e-collar as the thought of it sounded very cruel. Indeed the older e-collars were very strong and most people did use it to enforce pain.

I finally bought an e-collar to deal with my problem of Ellie taking off on walks to chase and capture wild animals. Now, she is usually very well behaved and a very good recall, but she has a very strong prey drive and I did not exist in those prey times.

Today's e-collars have a wide range of settings. I've only used the lowest 3 settings on my girl. I've tried this same setting on myself. It's not much different than the electric acupressure machine I use on myself!

An e-collar can be very effective tool for enforcing commands at a distance. I'd much rather have my dog get a mild, surprising, but not harmful zap than have her face ripped up when she captures a Ragondan (Nutria in English) A VERY large water rodent (looks like a cross between a rat and a ground hog.) Not to mention that this is undesirable behavior for a hunting dog.

I don't use it as such (yet?), but it can be an effective communication tool for distance work. A lot of people use it in the field to communicate silently for hunting. Again, at it's lowest settings, it feels like a slight buzz. There are also collars with the option to just deliver a vibration. Very effective for communicating with Deaf dogs. Many e-collars also have a Tone option for just delivering a tone.

I feel that e-collars are a useful tool. I don't think they are the first tool to use. I know of trainers who use the e-collar extensively. This seems silly to me to use it for teaching basic commands such as sit. It is very important to know HOW to use the collar humanely and effectively before using.

[Leslie]

syrinx said:

They are illegal here, as are those underground fences, as the RSPCA have decided they are cruel. ...I am going to start with a very eager, partly started, very strong willed boy.
Wendy

Wendy, as it's illegal in Australia, I'm assuming that you are just asking theoretically? Even though I think the e-collar is a useful tool, Id be careful no to dampen your boy's eagerness. Are you training hunting or general obedience? I'd say you wouldn't want to start with an e-collar.

[syrinx]

You are right, theoretical. We are going to be starting, and I wondered what might be ahead of me that some people needed to use one for. I was curious, as another list I am on, which seems to have a lot of people who do field work, they get a fair bit of a mention. Thanks for everyone who have helped me get an idea.
I'm not big on breaking the law. I'm not lucky enough to get away with it!
Wendy

[Leslie]

syrinx said:

I'm not big on breaking the law. I'm not lucky enough to get away with it!
Wendy

Didn't mean to imply that you planned on breaking the law. ;-) There are certainly ways to train without an e-collar. After all, they are a fairly recent invention and people have been hunting a long time ;-)

One way of training a willful dog is the "nothing for free" theory. All privileges are earned. and of course, the important part of the training is showing how pleasurable it is to do what is asked.

[Wetdog]

Wendy--timing is absolutely essential with ecollars and they are often misused in that regard.
Training is a matter of communication, and poorly timed corrections can not only lead to "untraining" it can also lead to wrong behaviors being advertantly trained in. One problem with ecollar misuse, is "blinking". Poor timing when teaching "whoa" can lead to the dog bypassing birds he knows is there to avoid getting a correction.
Generally speaking when you train, you get each step perfect close in and then move further out so that you can be sure you know the dog understands what is expected of him.
I've never used shock collars---but I can see where they might have some value in situations where you cann't be there all the time--such as digging or counter surfing. However dogs learn by experience, "playing the numbers". Even when he does get a correction once in awhile for certain behaviors, IF he gets away with it at other times, he will not associate the shock with the behavior. The correction then only becomes an occassional annoyance to him, and he'll either continue the behavior in spite of the shocks, or else modify his behavior so that he doesn't get the shocks, for instance watch to see if you are looking, or continue his habits from someplace you cann't see him.
A good book to learn open field training without the use of an ecollar is Open Obedience by William Koehler. If you will go to my website link in my signature, on the opening page, click on On Training, then Getting Started. You will find a link to finding Koehler books in that article. You can order it from there--Pam Green, Cactus Training Center, Tuscon Arizona.

[Leslie]

wetdog said:

A good book to learn open field training without the use of an ecollar is Open Obedience by William Koehler.

I enjoyed looking at your website and reading the training tips. It's interesting because I've read that a lot of the people who train with e-collars follow the Koehler method. I'll have to order some of these books to check out.

I have a question, without reading the book about his training of Force Fetch. Does he use the pinch (of ear or toe)? I'm not against using some "negative" reinforcement. I've always had a problem though with the ear or toe pinch used. I just can't bring myself to do it. I had a very good trainer that I respect, but who is very "old school" in his methods pinch my girls ear at 10 months and it nearly ruined her for retreiving and she loved retreiving! I've talked about this method with a lot of people I respect and I see where they are coming from, but I still can't accept it. It just feels too -- I don't know how to describe, but personal. But, I know I tend to be too soft with my girl, too.

[marjolein]

Being too soft on your dog is just as bad as being too hard I think. If you're too soft, the dog will learn that one day you will correct him/her for certain things, and the next day not or barely.
It's all about respect I think and you achieve that by being honest and consequent to your dog. If you need physical punishment to achieve this, it's just a lack of your abilities as a trainer (here's your answer about pinching ears or toes, not necessary I think, although it won't kill them).

[Leslie]

"Too soft" is probably an exaggeration, but I do probably spoil her a bit much though and have a hard time inflicting pain. I'm pretty consistent with her and she's actually a good girl, but I'm sometimes guilty of giving treats for free. I know some trainers demand a behavior for each privilege, such as a sit or down-stay before a walk each and every time. I will often have her do a sit - stay before a walk, but not every time. Every meal, she has to do a come to heel and sit and must wait for a release word to eat. She must wait for a release word to exit the car. I periodically ask for a behavior while playing fetch. If she doesn't do it, her precious ball gets put away.

[marjolein]

Leslie, I do know where you're coming from. It's quite easy to tell people what to do, but to do it yourself..... Easier said than done.

[Wetdog]

Lesley--there is nothing wrong with being "soft", in many cases, that is all that is required. Irena and I went through that with Audry. But not all dogs are "soft", sooner or later you'll meet up with some that you have to whack across the head with a big stick just to get their attention(don't take this seriously, I'm just exaggerating here to make the point)--the point being that they are just strong willed and will go their own way with out very firm well timed corrections. There are two secrets to corrections, first is timing--correct timing connects the action with the result in the dog's mind, that is what gives you communication, how the dog knows what you want. The second part is a correction that will be forceful enough to get the attention and behavior change you want. With a strong willed dog--a half hearted correction that is not strong enough to convince the dog to change his behavior once and for all is worse than no correction at all, because you are teaching him that he CAN do as HE pleases and get away with it.
YOUR job as a trainer is to be able to recognize when to progress to more forceful corrections---much of the time you won't need to, but when you do, there is no substitute of "old school" discipline. IT HAS TO BE USED EXACTLY AS NEEDED however, and only as much as will produce the desired result and timed for maximum effect.
Right now, there is a lot of emphasis on "positive reinforcement only" training. This goes in cycles. About every ten years or so, someone or other "discovers" soft training methods, and writes a book or makes a video and everyone jumps on the band wagon. Since dogs can learn this way, it seems to work fine and everyone is happy,....for awhile. Then people begin to discover that there are some dogs that are strong willed and are only going to do what THEY want to do. They begin to find out that dogs are not so simple as they thought, dogs CAN and do understand well enough to be able to manipulate training sessions so that the trainer becomes the trained.
The reason I recommend the Koehler course is because it trains YOU to be the trainer. Sometimes you will have to be tough and goal oriented, if you aren't, YOU will end up being the one that is trained.
Tough, "old school" corrections will not always be needed---but you as a trainer have to have them in your bag of tricks in order to do your job correctly.
A good example would be, a dog who is a biter. It would be very irresponsible of you as a trainer to allow a dog to go back to a family with children who is a biter that you did not train with absolute certainty that he is not a danger to family members or the public. Koehler's method of dealing with a dog that is a biter is indeed harsh--but even small dogs can do a lot of damage and to use anything less than training that will positively end the behavior is not doing either the dog OR the people that own him any favor. Remember, a dog who bites will be destroyed sooner or later. And the choice is not always up to the owner.
After 30+ years, I still recommend "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" even though it is long out of print, because I still think it is the best way for YOU to learn how to become a trainer. The step by step progression and the how and why explainations of what you are doing is still the best I think. There is still no other way that I know of that is as good at making a dog responsible for his own actions.

[anne]

Fred,

I'm curious about what Koehler's solution is to dog biting.

As you know I am in to the whole positive reinforcement training. But I do agree with the other things you have said. The problem I think that happens sometimes is that people don't realize how effective non-physical punishment can be, and often think that punishment is always physical. As you know, that is not so, although it can be. I hate punishing my dogs physically (and by the way, hate even more to do with an electric collar) and because this is MY problem, I try to find other ways to psychologically dominate our dogs.

Also I highly agree that different dogs have different pain thresholds and stubborness and need different ways of getting the point across, but one thing I am adamant about is TEACHING wtih positives and then proofing with negatives. I know teaching wiht negatives can be successfully achieved, but I also dont' think the majority of people are not good enough trainers to achieve this (including myself).

One more thing... I think some of the hard core positive trainers don't really realize that methods like clicker training can be used together with other types of training.

But going back to the dog biting scenario. I would like to know what Koehler recommends. I have had conversatons with David about correcting inappropriate barking/aggression and we disagree on what is appropriate for these behaviors.

Anne

[Wetdog]

Barking--can be corrected by teaching the "hush" command--and you can find that on my website under puppy training. Generally what I do is tie them up and use a hose to give them a good dousing as the correction. That works about 95% of the time. I have had a few dogs that like getting sprayed with a hose, in which case, we have to try something different, but you cross that bridge when you get to it.
For problem biters--keep in mind---we are talking about the real criminals of the dog world here, not ones that are a bit over protective of food or toys etc.--these are dogs that are aggressive with owners to be dominant over them or family members, you have to do two things.
FIRST---the dog has to learn that there is absolutely and unequivically NO option, he is NOT to bite the owner or a family member!!! Period. End of book.
This is only used when there is no other option. It is "cruel" but keep in mind, if this doesn't work the dog will have to be destroyed, there is no other option. If you don't do this--the dog dies so he'd BETTER learn his lesson the first time and forever. There is NO room for "Oh, he's a good boy most of the time......" or any other excuses.
You arm yourself with a two foot length of rubber hose---like heavy piece of washing machine hose, and you put a piece of wooden dowel stick inside it so that it has the right heft to give a good solid blow with. And you stick it in your pocket or belt where you can whip it out and have it ready in a second's notice. You put a heavy chain slip collar on him and keep him on a short leash. Then you start putting him through some obedience exercises that will bring out his contentious behavior. When he tries to bite you--you bring out your billy stick and give him a HARD crack across the top of the muzzle. You are going to have to shoot your left arm out to protect yourself and really give him a hard blow---otherwise, if you don't completely disable him with the first blow, you run a good risk of ending up in the hospital or worse(keep that in mind). Immediately, brace, and using both hands get the leash as high over your head as you can and lift his front legs off the ground and dangle him till he passes out.
He will look like he is dying and HE will think he is but don't worry--he isn't. He will be foaming at the mouth and he'll look dead but take my word for it, when you drop him to the ground he'll recover in just a couple of minutes. He won't have any lasting injuries from this but he WILL have learned a lesson he'll NEVER forget.
It is extreme, but the only other option is to destroy the dog, so is it cruel? If misused when it isn't needed I'd say yes. This is also something that should NEVER be used by any except the most experienced trainers---because, the least bit of hesitancy or half hearted reaction on the trainer's part places him is serious danger of injury AND will only increase the dogs aggression instead of making it less.
After this, you need to work very hard with the owners to teach dominance and control---the reason the dog has gotten like this is MOST often the end of a long succession owner handling mistakes that has planted the idea in the dog's mind that HE can contol the people. You need to make certain that you are not sending the dog back into a situation that will only revert back to the things that brought on such a dire situation in the first place.
I have used and seen this technique used many times at the US Navy K9 training facillity--where dogs are trained to guard nuclear weapons depots. The dogs need to be extremely aggressive and trained to be independently operative(in case the human handler is wounded or killed). This training can also make them very difficult to handle for obvious reasons. Any dog that goes too far with the training and becomes too aggressive and independent to the point he cann't be handled safely either has to learn this lesson or be destroyed, he cann't be used.
MOST of the time, this is something that is never going to be needed by persons who train at home with their own dogs. But if you become a professional and train classes and other outside problem behaviors--sooner or later you are going to be faced with a situation where you'll need to know how to handle things like this.

[anne]

Thanks Fred.

[Ingvild]

I don't mean to offend you Wetdog, but in my opinion the method you just described can not be justified no matter what the dog has done. It is beyond cruel. The dog would be better off put to sleep. You may also leave the dog with permanent damage if you hang him by the neck.

[smokeybear]

Could not agree more with you Ingvild, not only that it is TOTALLY unecessary and I can speak from experience having rehomed a serial barker and being responsible for showing many many owners of many many differing breeds how to successfully teach their dogs to be quiet. And I am talking extremely high drive dogs bred for competition.

There is absolutely NO need to cause this amount of discomfort.

How fortunate for the Weimaraners in the UK that you are not here (or for any other breed for that matter).

You "methods" date from the ark where they should remain.

I feel your post should be removed from the forum as it does NOT put the welfare of the dog first.

It is absolutely appalling and your credibility as a trainer of anything has been completely removed as far as I am concerned.

If you conducted yourself like this in the UK you would be prosecuted, and rightly so.

[marjolein]

I do not agree with this method either Allyson, but he's allowed to give his opinion, just like the rest of us.