e-collars

[smokeybear]

Using this argument then Marjolein would I be right in assuming that ANYONE is free to post ANY opinion they like irrespective of how "upsetting" and/or "offensive" it may be to anyone?

Hmm, not quite the impression I received when I posted something FACTUAL earlier this year.

Yet a poster can put something on the forum that promotes cruelty to animals?

I am completely gobsmacked..........

[Wetdog]

Did you read the post?

The dog would be better off put to sleep.

I tried to make it as clear as possible--we aren't dealing with Aunt Tillie's little Yorky that gets a little too excited and nips your ankles. These are dogs that can and DO kill people if not handled with care and sufficient force necessary to correct the situation. This is something that should only be used by a professional handler in situations where the only other alternative is destroying the dog.

It is beyond cruel. The dog would be better off put to sleep. You may also leave the dog with permanent damage if you hang him by the neck.

There is no permanent damage. If there were danger of that then the only thing to do would be to proceed directly to destroying the dog.

This is just one technique that is meant to be used only in the most limited of circumstances. Clear and present danger to the handler, owners and public. If you choose not to attempt it the only other choice is to destroy the dog. I made that recommendation last month--not because I didn't think that the dog could be rehabilitated--but because I was sure that we could not get the family to handle the dog in a strong enough manner to keep him from immediately reversing back. This family had small children, and all I could do was tell them to destroy the dog. If I hadn't, and one of the children were severely maimed or killed it would have been my responsibility.

[Wetdog]

This is the sort of situation we are talking about here.

www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/06/12/MNGJND7G5L1.DTL

[smokeybear]

Sorry but I do not understand why a dog would maim or kill a child just because it was barking a lot. This post was about action to take in a dog that barks.

Since when would a dog need to PTS for barking alone? (Except for noise pollution)

If a dog is dangerous (barking is not dangerous, except to the ears) then there are kind, effective non confrontational means using the techniques of counter conditioning and desensitisation to change the dogs emotional response to factors that cause it to be highly aroused, inappropriately etc.

The link you have posted has no bearing on training a dog not to bark. This link demonstrates only that inappropriate dogs are still bought by people who could not train clematis up a trellis. It has nothing to do with teaching a dog not to bark.

These are two entirely separate issues, and this completely unrelated example that you have posted, presumably in an effort to defend the totally intolerable and inexcusable treatment you administer to dogs who have serial barking problems, has nothing to do with the original question.

Dogs that bite need to be properly observed to understand the reason for their inappropriate behaviour, to determine the triggers and then to devise a suitable plan the change the conditioned emotional response the individual displays so that it will then become safe.

Confrontational methods used with dogs of the type you describe would not be used by respected dog trainers and they pose a risk of unplanned negative fallout, the latter does not occur when behavioural modification is practised rather than brute force.

[Ingvild]

I understood the post to be related to dogs that bite their owners, and I still think that this is totally inappropriate and cruel. (I can't even imagine how hanging a dog till it faints will help an aggression problem.) Sometimes the best thing for everyone (including the dog) is putting it to sleep! A dog that has aggression problems, especially big dogs like Weims, should IMO be put to sleep. It is (IMO) more humane then this kind of treatment. We have a responsibility to those around us. You yourself said in the post:

It is "cruel" but keep in mind, if this doesn't work the dog will have to be destroyed, there is no other option

That means that it is not 100% and what happens if the dog goes home and attacks a child? I don't think we as dog owners have the right to take that chance!

[Wetdog]

Sorry but I do not understand why a dog would maim or kill a child just because it was barking a lot. This post was about action to take in a dog that barks.

Since when would a dog need to PTS for barking alone? (Except for noise pollution)


This has NOTHING to do with barking. READ the posts. This is for biters. The only reason there is anything about barking is that is what Anne asked about originally.

But going back to the dog biting scenario. I would like to know what Koehler recommends. I have had conversatons with David about correcting inappropriate barking/aggression and we disagree on what is appropriate for these behaviors.

Anne

Barking and biting are two different issues, and there is no relation between the two.

Dogs that bite need to be properly observed to understand the reason for their inappropriate behaviour, to determine the triggers and then to devise a suitable plan the change the conditioned emotional response the individual displays so that it will then become safe.


We are talking about dogs that kill their own family members here, not growl over a food dish.

[smokeybear]

Dogs that would kill their own family members are obviously misplaced and should either be removed and placed with a more appropriate home, or PTS.

Having personally dealt with dogs with type of issues you describe, I would no more use the methods you recommend that stick pins in my eyes.........

The whole idea is completely farcical and having some EXTREMELY experienced and successful behaviourists and trainers as friends/mentors and training partners from all over the world, I can say without fear of contradiction that NONE of them would use such barbaric treatment.

Fortunately for the dogs that come through their hands!

You are correct on one thing however, I DID miss the first page of posts, however now that I HAVE read it all I can say is that if you cannot stop a simple behaviour such as counter surfing or digging without an e-collar then you must be a pretty poor trainer.

"Correction" is just a euphemism for punishment, it also indicates that the original training has not been sufficient and/or the dog is not suitably motivated.

Positive reinforcement is far from a new fad, operant conditioning was used as far back as the First World War, and is extremely effective and successful on species that would not take the sort of treatment you suggest such as Killer Whales, lobsters and spiders etc etc etc.

As for Koehler, the thing that most people forget when reading authors such as he is that he was ex military and they often got dogs that were either completely off their heads or very, very hard and insensitive (usually created by previous owners) and that ONLY a very small percentage were successfully "trained" using his neanderthal methods, the rest were "binned" (a euphemism for being destroyed).#

I look forward to the day when e-collars are banned, along with pinch collars and choke chains, none of which are required to train a dog for ANY purpose, and I have participated/competed/observed practically ALL disciplines in dog sports that currently exist, and hundreds of dogs over the years.

However I am grateful that you DID post, as it immediately identifies you as a person to whom I would recommend that enquirers steered well clear of, so it was very helpful..........

[greyghost]

And to think I got shouted down for alpha rolling my bitch when she was 'naughty'. I am sure there are other methods that would work equally well wetdog but as I am not a qualified trainer I do not have the answer to hand, but if the problem arose I would damn well go out and find one.

[Wetdog]

I was asked about a hypothetical worst case scenario, and I answered with the only two options.
To try to extrapolate that into all situations at all times is irrelevant.
I just tell people what works. If you don't like it, you don't have to use it.

As for Koehler, the thing that most people forget when reading authors such as he is that he was ex military and they often got dogs that were either completely off their heads or very, very hard and insensitive (usually created by previous owners) and that ONLY a very small percentage were successfully "trained" using his neanderthal methods, the rest were "binned" (a euphemism for being destroyed).#

Yes, Koehler was a military trainer---he was a handler instructor for the US Army K9 corps in WW2. I have been too. Why do you disparage that? It isn't competing for some nice little ribbon on weekends, the performance of police and military dogs has to be completely and absolutely reliable at all times and under any conditions. The lives of the handlers and other officers and soldiers depend on it.
He was an instructor for various training clubs and groups throughout the late 40's to 60's also. According to notarized affidavits total participation in classes he instructed numbered over 11,500 dogs.
He was also chief trainer for Walt Disney studios and received awards from the Humane Society of the US for his contributions to animal welfare in the film industry.

[Ingvild]

Hi Wetdog!
I see that we probably won't agree on this, but I just wanted to mention the following: I run a bird dog forum in Norway and we sometimes have debates like these, about what is exceptable and what is not.
The problem with posts that explain extreme training methods is that "beginners" always seem to think that they can do everything them selves and often try to. (Even though the person that posted it wrote that only experienced people should be doing this.) So I think posting this kind of info can be very dangerous. Especially when you are talking about dogs that are dangerous. Another thing is that "beginners" often mistake other behaviors (for example an unsure dog) with aggression.

[lisacoull]

I think I am glad that I very rarely log onto this forum reading these posts !!!!

I would not like to be your dog Wetdog :-(

[greyghost]

wetdog said:

I just tell people what works. If you don't like it, you don't have to use it.

I threw the ball at my dog as a warning once. It was supposed to go to the side of her but instead hit her in the face. Subsequently if I pretended to throw the ball at her it would stop her at a distance. Shall we use this one for training then - cos it works!!

[Wetdog]

No Ingvild, we do agree on that. I tried to be careful to explain that this has gotten off onto only the most extreme of cases.
This actually has nothing to do whatever with MOST training situations. And if truth be known, is not something that I myself would use.
The problem being(as I pointed out in my reference to the case I had last month)--I COULD have rehabilitated the dog, but then I could not be certain of the performance of the people I would send him back to. That would have been a certain recipe for disaster.

I think you are completely correct about people who are not qualified getting in over their heads. Just because we don't ever mention things though doesn't mean that they still won't do that. Hopefully by getting things out here and in context maybe we can avoid at least some of that however.

[lisacoull]

please would the socalled training expert here - cancel my membership please.

[smokeybear]

Same goes for me, too

I agree with Lisa, I do not wish to be associated with a forum that does not operate any form of censorship on posts which advocate cruelty to animals.

I can assure you Wetdog that some of us have experience with dogs that work for the military/police etc and guess what, some of our dogs have regularly beaten them in competition for "a little red ribbon".

I wonder why?

It could not possibly be because the dogs that are treated in an inhumane way KNOW that their e-collar is not on, so they do not have to comply?

And those dogs that are trained with positive methods will perform anywhere, anytime, etc?

Some of are far from "beginners" in dog training, and I hope we never do "begin" to use this sort of barbarism. The day I do, is the day I quit dogs and dog training...........

[marjolein]

Like they both requested, Smokeybear and Lisacoull have both been removed from our member list.

I do not agree on Fred's method either, but that doesn't mean we cannot discuss this. I really thought we were all grown-ups here. Unfortunately, I was wrong again.

I do not agree with Smokeybear about censoring things. We're not in the middle-east here. I shall now close this thread, because I've had enough of it.