Auto-Immune Disease - What Does It Mean ?

[Muriel]

Debra, have you thought about also seeing a Homeopathic Vet? They may well be able to help too and could of course work in conjunction with your regular one. Homeopathic Vets have to first qualify as regular ones, so you have the best of both worlds.

[debracrandell]

Thanks Cheryl - we are being referred to a specialty diagnostic clinic here in Dallas, Texas on Monday. Hopefully they can help us. I can't tell you what a wonderful site this is!!! Thank you for the hugs I will try to post some pictures of our boy.

Debra

[debracrandell]

No, I hadn't thought about a homeopathic vet but I know of one, I will check that out. Thank you!

[Cheryl]

Debra, until Christina gets here, there is a bit to read here:
www.gsdhelpline.com/cimda2.htm

[jai]

Great information.. I just found this article as well. It is very interesting to learn about the AI problems people are having or have had with their weims..
jai and falko

[weimaranerwhimzy]

for all the dogs who have this, many love filled blessings and hugs...thank you for this i will print and read closer later..

rita

[christina]

Hello Debra,

I am so sorry I haven't responded earlier. I am involved with running a canine support list for owners with dogs that have autoimmune conditions, which keeps me extremely busy, and unfortunately I don't find the time to visit other lists as frequently as I would like to.

What you describe with Luke sounds like he might have developed a new autoimmune condition, having outgrown the HOD. This is quite common. HOD is one of those AI conditions that usually gets outgrown, and most owners think that this will be it.... sadly it rarely is. Once an autoimmune disease has been triggered, there is no cure... only treatment and remission. As soon as the immune system gets challenged by some other trigger, there is a danger that it will go haywire again. By the sounds of it, this might have happened to Luke. - If your vet has performed any blood tests recently, please always ask for copies of the results.

If you like, I would be happy to send you an invitation to our K9Auto-Immune Support Group, which would give you the advantage of our whole team as well as all the other members supporting you and Luke and all sharing their experiences. We have currently 2 other members on there whose dog suffer(ed) from HOD (one is still going through it, the other is relapsing with something else). Both are Weims, btw (

Please feel free to email me on [e-mail]. Our website is pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/K9Auto-ImmuneSupport/

Hope to hear from you soon, and gentle hugs to Luke,
with best wishes,
Christina

[debracrandell]

Hello all - just a quick update here on Luke's "adventures".

We went this morning to the specialist in Dallas. His name is Keven Gullickers. He decided to run an immune panel as well as another CBC. He thinks because Luke is already on 10mg of Prednisone twice a day the tests will likely come back negative for Auto-Immune which means we will have to run them again in several weeks as we taper the Prednisone down. If they do come back positive while he is on this dose Prednisone then we can get started on Azathioprine. I was so reassured when he said that medication because of what Christina had written about in treatment oh her babies. I want to do more research about it but feel better than I would had I not heard of it. I found two very interesting articles about Immunodeficiency v. AutoImmune both from vets. I will paste the link below and the article by Guillermo Cuoto is worth a read as well as the Mornington Vet Clinic story.

www.britfeld.com/isd.htm



If anyone knows how to reach Christina I would love to e-mail with her about Azathioprine.

[christina]

Hello Debra,

I am here - I've just replied to you above.
You can email me anytime at [e-mail]

love,
Christina

[christina]

Hi again Debra,

I just thought of an article that might interest your vet. If you can, please print it out and give it to your vet to read. It might give him some clues about Luke's condition.
It is long and fairly technical, but I am sure he will find it very interesting....

f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QFmJRpUJZdWuo3gBeCEvFot4VqoJNGpwZKxzP_M0slAurta9rJzoj5RrzUrH1Ay2UPWdvzIIYeIA_vviXnSXpA/Weimaraner%20Immunodeficiency/Weimaraner%20Immunodeficiency.pdf

It's an Adobe file - hope you can open it....

Looking forward to you mailing me.... About Azathioprine... yes, it works extremely well in combination with Prednisolone - but it is a very serious and toxic drug, and some dogs can have adverse reaction to it. If a dog is on it, the blood will have to be monitored very regularly to see how the liver, kidneys and bone marrow are dealing with it.

with best wishes,
Christina

[christina]

.... just tried it and it does not open just by clicking on it.... it needs the full text for it to work.

Christina

[debracrandell]

Oh Christina - I am so glad I logged on today! I forgot yesterday and it occured to me last night that I needed to check to see if you had been on. I will e-mail you next and I DEFINITELY want to be a part of the support group!!! I wish I had that when Luke was suffering through the HOD. I am wondering what other immunosuppresive drugs are out there besides Azathioprine for immunosuppresion? Are there any that are newer, safer?

HUGS!!! Debra

[debracrandell]

Pictures of Luke

www.dogster.com/dogs/521353

[tosmod]

Hi,

I just wanted to share my experience of AI - I wish there had been more info about when we were going through it a few years ago.



Benson was Ill about 1 month after his 12 week jabs. Poorly tummy, fever etc. The vet fixed it with a shot and some anti biotics.
This continued sporadically for the next 2 years, same routine, he would get ill, sleep alot, bad tummy, off to the vet, have a jab, sometime be admitted, drip, pick him up the next day.
We changed his diet again and again, and nothing helped.
He also had the WORST raw skin all summer, which would bleed and must have been so painful.

Sadly, when Benson was 3, my 2 year old Weim Harvey died (thats a whole other story). We brought him home to bury him, and Benson saw him. 2 days later, Benson had another episode. Only this time, he deteriorated rapidy, to the point whereby he was passing blood every half an hour. Off to the vets, expecting to admit him as usual. The vet took him in, and called me around 3 hours later. He was getting worse. They were brilliant, and referred me to the Royal Vetinary College in Potters Bar.

We took him over and checked him in. 3 weeks later, he was still there, still ill, and skeletal by this point. I got a call in the middle of the night, saying it was do or die - they could give him predisnolone, and if it was AI it would help him, and if it wasnt, it would kill him. Thank goodness (ironically) it was AI.

He came home a month later, weighing around 17kgs. A year of eating tuna and rice, followed by a phased approach to wheat gluten free food. We reduced the preds over the next 2 years, very very gradually. He had withdrawl, and it wasnt easy to watch. But we got there in the end. Once he was off the meds, he started to gain weight. It took 2 years before he was back to normal weight.

Here we are now, he is nearly 7, he got off the meds, and he is controlled by a wheat gluten free diet. He still has problems with his skin, and many ear infections, which are treated individually.

He has had 5 or 6 relapses, which have been easily fixed with a very very low dose of preds for a day or two.

Im amazed firstly at how long the recovery took, if this is happening to your dog, dont worry, its a long road. I was also amazed at the fact he is now drug free, all these years later.

I dont expect he will live to be a centurian, but, his quality of life is excellent, and I would take a few good years over many poor ones, any day.

Interestingly, a year ago, the Royal Vetinary College ran many tests on him, and said he could be re vaccinated. We did it, and he has had his booster, with no ill effects.

Im lucky that the RVC have been involved, and even luckier that he is insured!

I hope this helps anyone who is struggling with this - like I said, i wish there had been more info around when we were going through this.

[marjolein]

What a story......

[tasha]

did they manage to find out what the problem was or was it just a wheat/gluten intolerance that caused all the problems ?? thank you for sharing.

[christina]

Hello Tosmod and all,

Thank you for telling Benson's story. Unfortunately it sounded all too familiar

I am pleased that Benson is doing well now and most of all that he is drug free. Preds are a Godsend, but it becomes very difficult if you can't wean a dog off it. - You are right, dealing with autoimmunity is a long and rocky road. Once AI has been triggered, there is no cure, only remission. The trick is to keep the dog in remission for as long as you can.... but realistically in most cases there will be relapses.

From your description I am assuming that Benson suffers from IBD (Inflammatory Bowel Disease). He may indeed be intolerant to gluten, but in all likelihood he will also be allergic to certain types of protein. The worst thing about IBD is that those intolerances can suddenly spring up.... a protein previously tolerated might become 'wrong' at any given moment and when this happens, you'll have to find another protein that he is not allergic to (for a while at least). IBD - if that is what Benson's got - can vary enormously in severity. Some dogs can indeed be managed on diet along, others need life-long medication and ever changing diets.

One tip - Please do include at least once a year a thyroid function blood test for Benson. IBD and Hypothyroidism do go hand in hand and one can lead to the other. Even if he is not hypothyroid yet, chances are that he might become hypothyroid in the not too distant future. Early clinical signs and symptoms are likely to appear many months, if not years BEFORE the blood test shows a clear diagnosis. This is because the thyroid gland will have to be at least 75% destroyed (by the autoantibodies of the immune system) before the figures slide into the red. - My advice, be vigilant and treat early... preferably as soon as he shows clinical symptoms, if you can persuade your vet. Hypothyroidism is yet another autoimmune disease, and it would need the missing hormones replaced (with Soloxine). Trust me - the earlier treated, the better... but I am almost sure that the vets at the RVC won't agree with this my statement. I do, however, know what I am talking about. Not only is my own dog hypothyroid (also suffers from IBD and AlopeciaX) and I have 'dealt with' hundreds of hypothyroid dogs on lists, but I suffer from Hashimoto's disease (autoimmune thyroiditis) myself. - Watch out for clinical signs and symptoms of Hypothyroidism....
www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/ThyroidDisease.htm


I was very sad to read that the RVC has recommended to have Benson re-vaccinated. For the life of me, I do not understand those vets, nor indeed any "necessity" for a booster vaccination. In my personal view to recommend a booster vaccination to an autoimmune dog borders on negligence - more than 'borders' actually.... - Benson has been vaccinated at 12 weeks, and that vaccination will in all likelihood have given him immunity FOR LIFE for distemper, parvo and hepatitis ... and the vets know it (or at least SHOULD know that). There is no such thing as "boosting" existing antibodies and any dog with an autoimmune condition should NEVER receive another vaccination. All a booster will do is put an AI-dog at a very high risk for a relapse.... you have been very lucky to have got away with it. Often one more jab is all that is needed to trigger a fully blown relapse.

For peace of mind I would always recommend to do a titre test instead of a booster vaccination, although this is only for the benefit of the owner.... any dog who has been vaccinated at around 12 weeks of age (which is the optimal time for the jabs) will almost definitely have antibodies for life.

Very best wishes,
Christina

PS: For all who are interested - please read the following website... it's an eye-opener.....

www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/Current%20Knowledge%20of%20Immunology%20101.htm

For modified live vaccines like distemper and parvovirus we inject a few attenuated (weakened) viruses into the patient. These viruses are taken
up by the host DNA where they replicate. For every virus injected we get thousands. They are then presented to the immune system. This programs plasma cells to produce antibodies. It also
programs memory cells which persist for the life
of the patient.
These memory cells, B &T lymphocytes, can at a moments notice, respond with sufficient antibodies to prevent infection, even in the absence of an antibody titer. Cell mediated immunity is also stimulated, which can attack and
destroy any cells which become infected, before the virus can replicate.

If the patient had antibodies from the mother’s colostrum or from a previous vaccination, antibodies from colostrum or from the first vaccine would
prevent the viruses in the new vaccine from replicating. Cell mediated immunity would also prevent replication. The immune system would not be stimulated. Since antibody titers have been shown to last for 7 to 15 years and memory cells persist for life there is no benefit from repeat administration of MLV vaccines like distemper and parvovirus. Maternal antibodies or antibodies from a previous vaccination can block a rabies vaccine from having any effect in the same way.

Because modified live vaccines replicate within the host’s cells they stimulate good cell mediated immunity. For a killed vaccine to stimulate cell mediated immunity( depending on the antigen), an adjuvant must be added to make the virus in the vaccine a sustained release type product. Adjuvant also stimulates the immune system by increasing inflammation at the site of the vaccine.

The average person may believe that this is why we give a series of vaccines initially, to boost the immunity. This is not what happens at all. Remember we just said that antibodies from the first vaccine will block any subsequent vaccines form having an effect. There is no such thing as a booster for a modified live vaccine.

Different puppies may receive more antibodies depending on the mothers antibody levels and depending on how much they nurse.These maternal antibodies block a vaccine from having any effect. They antibody levels will decline at different rates in different puppies. They will decline to a low enough level that the vaccine virus can replicate and stimulate the immune system beginning at 6 weeks in some puppies and sometimes last
as late as 16 weeks in other puppies.

We give a series of vaccines every three to
four weeks so we can break through the maternal antibodies at the earliest possible time. It is not important how many vaccines
the patients get. What is important is
how old they are when they get the last vaccine. The older they are, the better an immunity they can get due to the lack of maternal antibodies interfering with the vaccine, and also due to age related immunity.

Puppies and kittens adsorb antibodies form their mothers milk, colostrum, the first day they nurse.


At 6 weeks of age only 37% of puppies and kittens will have low enough maternal antibody levels that the
vaccine can work .

At 8-9 weeks 79% of puppies will have low enough maternal antibody levels that the vaccine can work.
At 12 weeks 95% will have low enough maternal antibody levels that the vaccine can work.

This study was done on Rottweillers which seem to be harder to seroconvert. This study does not take into effect cell mediated immunity 106 dogs, divided into three groups, and vaccinated one, two or three years previously were re-vaccinated. The antibody titer only
rose slightly in one dog. This proves that antibodies from a previous vaccine will block any subsequent vaccine from having an effect. The virus in the vaccine must replicate to stimulate an immune response. Antibodies from a previous vaccine block this replication. This is what Dr Schultz meant when he said
“the client is paying for something with no effect.” Annual administration of rabies, distemper and parvovirus vaccine does not elevate antibody titers or expand the number of memory cells. The immunity of the patient is not enhanced.



We give a series of three or four vaccines to puppies initially. At six weeks we protect 37%. The other puppies had too high of maternal
antibody levels for the vaccine to have any effect. If we give another vaccine to all the puppies at 8 weeks we can now immunize 79%.



From Dr Ian Tizard, author of the text book on immunology used by most Veterinary Schools.

An important thing to note for dog breeders, vaccinating the bitch before breeding in a previously immunized dog does not increase antibody levels
in the colostrum.

There is no scientific data to show vaccines are only good for a year or that repeat administration of vaccines annually stimulates added protectionThis is what Dr Schultz meant when he said ”the client is paying for something with no effect.”

Those puppies that were successfully immunized at 6 weeks of age will not get any stimulation out of this next vaccine because the antibodies they developed from the first vaccine will block the next vaccine from having any effect. We give another round of vaccines because we do not know which puppies were protected and it is cheaper to re-vaccinate than to test their titers. The vaccine at 12 weeks will protect some new puppies that were not previously protected, but those that were already protected will not be stimulated further because the antibodies from the previous vaccine will block any subsequent vaccine. This is the reason we give a series of vaccines. The immune system does not mature completely until 6 months of age. Any vaccine given after 6 months of age will provide a better immunity. That is why we give another vaccine at one year later. The one year interval was a completely arbitrary number chosen simply because that was a convenient time for the owner to return.

Those puppies that were successfully immunized at 6 weeks of age will not get any stimulation out of this next vaccine because the antibodies they developed from the first vaccine will block the next vaccine from having any effect. We give another round of vaccines because we do not know which puppies were protected and it is cheaper to re-vaccinate than to test their titers. The vaccine at 12 weeks will protect some new puppies that were not previously protected, but those that were already protected will not be stimulated further because the antibodies from the previous vaccine will block any subsequent vaccine. This is the reason we give a series of vaccines. The immune system does not mature completely until 6 months of age. Any vaccine given after 6 months of age will provide a better immunity. That is why we give another vaccine at one year later. The one year interval was a completely arbitrary number chosen simply because that was a convenient time for the owner to return.

Two weeks later when the virus replicates this drives the immune system through the second phase of the anamnestic response (ref: Ian York) One dose of a MLV vaccine like parvovirus drives the immune system through both phases of the anamnestic response. It is not necessary to administer another dose. Another important thing this graph demonstrates is why we should not give vaccines two weeks apart. At the two week interval the immune system is at its peak response. Lots of non-specific inflammatory agents are stirred up. If we give another vaccine two weeks later we are more likely to get an adverse reaction and less likely to get a good immune response. Vaccines should be administered three or four weeks apart. An even longer interval will work just as well. IF A CLIENT IS LATE FOR A VACCINE IN THE INITIAL SERIES, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO START OVER.

[basmith923]

Hi From Chicago, IL USA!!

Found this site searching for immune dieeases in weims.

A little over two months ago our 1 1/2 yr old Rosey had just finished her first heat cycle. As soon as this was I over I noticed she was having problems with opening her month, she couldn't open it to chew rawhides, pickup balls and I switched her to a diet of rice and meat with canned food as this was much easier for her to eat. I called the vet when this first happened and they instructed me to make her open her mouth to ensure nothing was stuck like a stick or something, after I told them there wasn't they said to wait it out over the weekend it was more than likely an absece and would come through on the outside. Low and behold she got worse, became extremly lathergic but did continue to eat and drink. I got her into the vet that Monday by which time she had lumps all over her body and had sores all over her face and mouth. The vte tried to open her mouth with little success but said everything seemed ok as far as gum color etc. she then stated she had never seen anything like this and did needle aspirations on the lumps and ran her bloodwork, she was also running a fever. The vet called with the results the next day stating she had a high white cell blood count which meant infection and the lumps came back as just fatty tissues. They put her on the antibiotic clavamox for a week, while some of the lumps started to go down and sores were scarring over , she still was having difficulty with her mouth however and still seemed upset. Not feeling very confident in this vet and upset to see our poor girl in soo much pain we took her to another vet. Upon arrival, they right away took her in back to check out her mouth and instructed me they would have to put her under ansthsia to check it out, I agreed knowing we had to get to the bottom of things. The vet called a few hours later stating they had no luck opening her mouth under anesthisia either and that her and the other 2 vets in the office came to the conclusion we were dealin with an AI. The ran full blood work, took a urine sample and a chemical panel. They also gave her a shot of prednisone to start with. I kept rosey with me and did not leave her side (more like she didn't leave mine) the next day awaiting the results. I searched all over the internet, which is how I found this site, along with a list of 100+ AI dieseases all very different. When the vet called she confirmed that she indeed had a high white count and a low red count making her slightly anemic, she also had low protein levels. She informed me that she had spoken with an internal medicine specialist who instructed her to send the bloodwork to a lab in CA to have antibodies tested to ensure that we were indeeded dealing with an AI attacking the muscle fibers in her mouth. We also started her on a high dose of prednisone in the meantime as the shot had already showed a small improvment. On top of this we switched her food to Innova EVO, the next week Rosey showed much progress and has been able to chew rawhides, pickup balls and eat food with little to no difficulty so far. Aside from the pred. side effects of excessive drinking and frequent potty breaks Rosey seems to be doing much better. The vet called back the following week and confimred that her antibodies were high, the AI we are dealing with is Masticatory Muscle Myositis. I have found much information on this AI and although she has lost some definition in her face making her look more sunk-in, overall she seems to be in a better mood. We are starting to slowwly taper her down on the pred. figers crossed all keeps looking well. The vet is pretty certain that we caught it in the earlier stages as she is showing improvement in such short time. We know this will be a long road and the pred. is a harsh drug.

[marjolein]

Thanks for sharing this story. I really keep my fingers crossed for you and your girl!!!!

[basmith923]

Thank you!!