Standard and Color

[Wetdog]

FCI-Standard N° 99/ 13. 02. 2002 / GB

WEIMARANER

TRANSLATION : C.Seidler.

ORIGIN : Germany.

DATE OF PUBLICATION OF THE ORIGINAL VALID STANDARD : 27.02.1990.

UTILIZATION : Versatile hunting dog, pointing dog.

CLASSIFICATION F.C.I. : Group 7 Continental Pointing
Dogs.
Section 1.1 Continental Pointing
Dogs, Type « Braque » .
With working trial.

BRIEF HISTORICAL SUMMARY : There are numerous theories regarding the origin of the Weimaraner Pointing Dog. Only so much is certain : That the Weimaraner, which at that time still contained a great deal of liam hound blood (« Leithund ») was already kept at the Weimar court in the first third of the 19th century.
In the middle of the century, before pure breeding was started, breeding was mainly in the hands of professional hunters and game keepers in central Germany, mostly in the regions round Weimar and in Thuringia. As the days of the liam hounds passed, the dogs were crossed with the « Hühnerhund » and breeding was continued with this cross. From about 1890 on, the breed was produced according to a plan and regarded as suitable for registration in a stud book. Apart from the short-haired Weimaraner, a long-haired variety occurred, if only singly, since the turn of the century. Since being admitted to the stud book, the Weimaraner has been pure bred, remaining mostly free from crosses with any other breeds, in particular, Pointers. Therefore the Weimaraner is likely to be the oldest German « pointing » breed, which has been pure bred for about a hundred years.

GENERAL APPEARANCE : Medium to large size hunting dog. Functional working type, pleasing in shape, sinewy and very muscular. Difference in type between dogs and bitches easily distinguished.

IMPORTANT PROPORTIONS :
Length of body to height at withers approximately 12 : 11.
Proportions of the head : From tip of nose to stop slightly longer than from stop to occiput.
Forequarters : Distance from elbow to mid-pastern and distance from elbow to point of withers about equal.

BEHAVIOUR / TEMPERAMENT : Versatile, easily trained steady and passionate hunting dog. Persevering in systematic search, yet not too lively. Remarkable ability to pick up scent. Ready to seize game and other prey; he is a good watchdog, without aggressiveness however. Reliable pointing dog and worker in water. Remarkable inclination to work after the shot.

HEAD

CRANIAL REGION :
Skull : In balance with size of body and facial region. Broader in dogs than bitches, yet in both, the relationship between width of cranial region to total length of head must be in good proportion. Median groove on forehead. Slightly to moderately protruding occipital bone. Zygomatic arches easily traceable behind the eyes.
Stop : Extremely slight.

FACIAL REGION :
Nose : Nose leather large, protruding over the underjaw. Dark flesh colour, merging gradually into gray towards the rear.
Muzzle : Long and, specially in the male, powerful, appearing almost angular. Region of canines and carnassial teeth equally strong. Bridge of nose straight, often slightly arched, never with a concave curve.
Flews : Moderately deep, flesh coloured, as are the gums. Slight labial corner.
Jaws/Teeth : Jaws strong; teeth complete, regular and strong. Top and bottom incisors closely touching (scissor bite).
Cheeks : Muscular, clearly defined. Definitely « clean » head.
Eyes : Amber colour, dark to pale, with intelligent expression. Sky-blue in puppies. Round, set barely slanting. Lids well fitting.
Leathers : Lobular, broad and fairly long, just reaching to corner of mouth. Set on high and narrow, forming a rounded off point at tip. In alterness, turned slightly forward, folded.

NECK : Noble appearance and carriage. Upper line arched in profile. Muscular, nearly round, not too short, clean. Becoming stronger towards the shoulders and merging harmoniously into the topline and chest.

BODY :
Topline : From the arched neckline, over the well defined withers the topline merges gradually into the relatively long, firm back.
Withers : Well defined.
Back : Firm and muscular, without a dip. Not running up towards the rear. A slightly longer back, a breed characteristic, is not a fault.
Croup : Pelvis long and moderately sloped.
Chest : Strong but not unduly broad, with sufficient depth to reach almost to elbows and of sufficient length. Well sprung without being barrel-shaped and with long ribs. Forechest well developed.
Underline and Belly : Rising slightly, but belly not tucked up.

TAIL : Set on slightly lower than with other similar breeds. Tail strong and well coated. Carried hanging down in repose. When alert or working, carried level or higher.

LIMBS

FOREQUARTERS :
General : High on leg, sinewy, straight and parallel, but not standing wide.
Shoulders : Long and sloping. Well fitting, strongly muscled. Well angulated shoulder joint.
Upper arm : Sloping, sufficiently long and strong.
Elbows : Free and lying parallel to median plane of body. Turned neither in nor out.
Forearm : Long, straight and vertical.
Pastern joint : Strong and taut.
Pastern : Sinewy, slightly sloping.
Front feet : Firm and strong. Standing straight in relation to median plane of body. Toes arched. Longer middle toes are a breed characteristic and therefore not a fault. Nails light to dark gray. Pads well pigmented, coarse.

HINDQUARTERS :
General : High on leg, sinewy i.e. well muscled. Standing parallel, turning neither in nor out.
Upper thigh : Sufficiently long, strong and well muscled.
Stifle : Strong and taut.
Lower thigh : Long with clearly visible tendons.
Hock joint : Strong and taut.
Hock : Sinewy, almost vertical in position.
Hind feet : Tight and firm, without dewclaws, otherwise like front feet.

GAIT / MOVEMENT : Movement in all gaits is ground covering and smooth. Hind and front legs set parallel to each other. Gallop long and flat. Back remains level when trotting. Pacing is undesirable.

SKIN : Strong. Well but not too tight fitting.

COAT

HAIR :
Short-haired : Short (but longer and thicker than with most comparable breeds), strong, very dense, smooth lying topcoat. Without or with only very sparse undercoat.
Long-haired : Soft, long topcoat with or without undercoat. Smooth or slightly wavy. Long flowing hair at ear set on. Velvety hair is permissible on tips of leathers. Length of coat on flanks 3 - 5 cm. On lower side of neck, forechest and belly, generally somewhat longer.
Good feathering and breeching, yet less long towards ground. Tail with good flag. Hair between toes. Hair on head less long. A type of coat similar to a double-coat (Stockhaar) with medium length, dense, close fitting topcoat, thick undercoat and moderately developed feathering and breeching, sometimes occurs in dogs of mixed ancestry.

COLOUR : Silver, roe or mouse grey, as well as shades of these colours. Head and leathers generally slightly paler. Only small white markings on chest and toes permitted. Sometimes a more or less defined trace occurs along the back. Dog with definite reddish-yellow marking (« Brand ») may only be given the classification « good ». Brown marking is a serious fault.

SIZE AND WEIGHT :
Height at the withers :
Dogs : 59 - 70 cm (ideal measurement 62 - 67 cm).
bitches : 57 - 65 cm (ideal measurement 59 - 63 cm).
Weight : Dogs : about 30 - 40 kg.
bitches : about 25 - 35 kg.

FAULTS : Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree.

SERIOUS FAULTS :
Clear deviation from type. Untypical sexual characteristics.
Gross deviations from size and proportions.
Facial region : Gross deviations e.g. too strong flews, short or pointed muzzle.
Jaws and teeth : Lack of more than two PM1 or M3.
Eyes : slight faults, above all slight and unilateral faults in eyelids.
Leathers : Definitely short or long, not folded.
Throatiness (dewlap), great deviation in neck shape and muscle.
Back : Definite sway or roach back. Rump higher than withers.
Chest, belly : Barrel shaped chest. Insufficient depth or length of chest. Tucked up belly.
Gross anomalies in stance i.e. lack of angulation, out at elbows, splay feet.
Pronounced bow legs or cow hocks.
Bad movement in different gaits, also lack of free forward movement or drive, pacing.
Serious deficencies i.e. skin very fine or very coarse.
Mixture of coat varieties defined in the standard.
Lack of feathering on belly or leathers (leather ears). Widely spread woolly coat in the short-haired Weimaraner or curly or sparse feathering in the long-haired variety.
Departure from shades of gray, such as yellow or brownish. Tan marking (« Brand »).
Strong departure from correct height or weight (e.g. more than 2 cm from measurements given in the standard).
Slight deficiency in temperament.
Other serious faults.

ELIMINATING FAULTS :
Faulty temperament, i.e. shy or nervous.
Completely untypical, above all too heavy or too light in build.
Completely unbalanced.
Absolutely untypical, e.g. bulldog - type head.
Facial region : Absolutely untypical i.e. distinctly concave nasal bridge.
Jaws and teeth : Overshot, undershot, missing further teeth other than quoted.
Eyes : Entropion, ectropion.
Leathers : Absolutely untypical, i.e. stand-off.
Particularly pronounced dewlap.
Back : Severe sway or roach back. Definitely overbuilt at croup.
Chest, belly : Markedly barrel shaped or malformed chest.
Legs rickety or malformed.
Chronic lameness.
Totally restricted movement.
Skin defects and malformations.
Partial or total hair loss.
White markings other than on chest and feet.
Colour other than gray. Widespread brown marking.
Definitely over-or undersize.
Other malformation. Illnesses which must be considered hereditary, i.e. epilepsy.
The compilers can, naturally, not list all faults which occur, the above are to be regarded as examples.

Any dog clearly showing physical or behavioural abnormalities shall be disqualified.

N.B. : Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum.



----------My Marriam-Webster dictionary defines "gray" as any shade of a color ranging from black to white---no mention of brownish tinge at all

----
mouse gray---mice range from white to black to brown--they could be either color---almost all wild mice that I have ever seen(and I'd be the first one to say they are "gray") would be more properly defined as "blue" in Weimaraner speak.
Silver---the metal silver has no brown tinge to it at all, if I wanted to describe something brown in relation to metal I'd use the term "copper" or "rust"
roe---there are two different definitions, first, fish eggs--they can be any color from white, red, orange(salmon), grey or brown(trout),to jet black(sturgeon--which also comes in grey shades) There is no help from this color description.
roe-is also defined as a small European and Asian deer, that is "reddish brown in summer, and greyish in winter"{quote from the Marriam-Webster definition}. This would suggest to me that either reddish brown OR "blue" is an acceptable color.

To my reading of the standard--there is a serious flaw in the color definitions--for myself, I would describe the most common color as khaki, taupe, light brown or something else other than gray----it is just not what my own description of gray would be.

[anne]

I can only speak for the research I've done on Blues from the American perspective, and I can tell you that a lot of argument revolves around the semantics. As we all know Weimaraner Gray/Silver is a dilute brown, and the terms such as "fawn" or "taupe" are probably better descriptors. To me, Weimaraner Blue is charcoal gray. It's confusing.

One thing I pointed out to Irena when we chatted yesterday is that the 1944 American standard (the first standard) INCLUDED Blue.

“Color Gray (Silver, Bright, Dark, Yellow); [bold]the Dark Gray may be either ash or blue[/bold].”

Jack Denton Scott, an early fancier and the person who wrote an early book on Weimaraners, claims that the original standard used the term blue due to poor translation of the German. He says, “clouded by inept translation from the original German and riddled with loopholes by the lack of foresight of the persons responsible for its acceptance” (p 109).

I've been promising that I'd put up an informational site on Blues for the past year and am still working on it.... There are gaps in what I have, and would certainly love a contact in Germany who can help wtih my research. However, so far what I have, is probably more than what I've seen anywhere as far as compiled information on Blues. I HOPE to have some time to finish what I'm doing.

[anne]

The WCA interviews Capt Harry J Holt, the man who bought Casar v Gaiberg (the progenitor of the Blue Weim in America) because there was so much controversy over his coat color.

This is a cut and paste from one of my articles:

Cäsar von Gaiburg (“Tell”), born February 25, 1947, was the product of a mother - son breeding and one of three puppies in the litter. As with all German breedings, this breeding was approved by the German Klub, and Tell came from excellent bloodlines, bloodlines represented in dogs owned by many of the German Klub officials at the time according to the investigation conducted by the Weimaraner Club of America in its Minutes of Meeting of Board of Governors of the Weimaraner Club of America, March 8, 1950 (MOM). Captain Harry J Holt, an American stationed in Germany, purchased Tell because he felt that, “this was a dog that we should have back here in the States to be reproduced, and especially since it was inbred.” (MOM 56). Holt was a German Shorthaired Pointer fancier and breeder who helped found the German Shorthaired Pointer Club in Kansas City. He had heard about the Weimaraner while in the States, and once in Germany, he befriended Mr. Fritz Kullmer, the Secretary of the German Weimaraner Klub. It was on Kullmer’s recommendation and approval that Holt bought Tell. Kullmer had owned a littersister to Tell’s dam who was a world champion, and Kullmer knew the bloodlines well. Tell’s mother was Int’l Ch Cilly v. Kreuzgrund, who was also the dam of Aura v. Gaiberg, one of four imported Weimaraners that constituted the foundation of American bloodlines. In the MOM, Holt notes that Kullmer “used to tell me about a great dog he had, a world champion… and this dog was mouse-gray” (53). Holt confirms that he took Kullmer’s comment to mean that both Kullmer’s world champion and Tell were the same color, mouse-gray (54).

One puppy from the litter had died, and there were two males left. Holt chose Tell because “I liked the way he was put together” (MOM 54) The other puppy, Bodo, was gray, but Holt chose Tell over the litter brother because Tell had a nicer rear and Bodo was “sickle-hearted.” Holt says, “I was originally commissioned in the horse cavalry and I have dabbled in riding and I think I understand polo ponies and jumpers and I judge a hunting dog on the conformation of a thoroughbred horse, and bad legs, bad hind legs, sickle-heart, and so forth are definitely a demerit. Ears are not” (58-59).

Holt was a hunter and trained and hunted over Tell before bringing him to William Olson of Minneapolis in July of 1949. Registration papers were issued along with the transfer to Olson in January 1950. Eric Kuhr, the President of the German Klub, would not have issued papers had he thought that Tell was a product of a cross-breeding, and the color indicated on Tell’s pedigree was “SGR” which stood for silver-gray (MOM 161).

Oddly, shortly after the papers were issued, Kuhr seems to have changed his mind about Tell.

-----

Lots more to this story and lots more controversy too.........

[smokeybear]

"sickle hearted" should not that read sickle hocked?

[anne]

That is what was meant I think, but I have a copy of the meeting minutes and he did say "sickle hearted."

[Irena]

wetdog said:

To my reading of the standard--there is a serious flaw in the color definitions--for myself, I would describe the most common color as khaki, taupe, light brown or something else other than gray----it is just not what my own description of gray would be.

I can only agree with this. Indeed, it seems that the FCI standard has pretty much failed to describe the OK and, less so, non-OK colours. Of course the same Weim can look absolutely different under various lighting, and it can and does look "silver" too, but there seems to be a problem in semantics. Surely if the judge in the ring here said that the blue weim he was seeing actually was not "grey", one could suggest he see a doctor because "blues" do look grey to me at least in pictures, and it can in no way be classified as a DQ fault on the basis of "colour other than grey". It IS grey, only different. (But certainly not less "greyer" than the usual colour, I don't think.) I guess I am just astounded that showing Blues can suddenly be so simple. I could have never imagined there was such a possibility according to the very FCI standard.

Smokeybear, you better watch out.......

"The coat of the Weimaraner should be mouse grey, silver grey or roe grey blending to a lighter shade on the head and ears. Often they develop a darker eel stripe along their backs. The whole coat should give the impression of a metallic sheen. Occasionally they may have a white mark on their chests, this is permissible, as are white scar marks resulting from injuries." (from the UK Kennel Club Weimaraner Standard) (I nicked this from a site called Anne-Marie's Weimaraners, I hope it is correct and up to date)

[Alkemist]

Irena there is an added issue in the UK. When a wei is registered over here, you assess the colour yourself. You can call it grey, silver grey, whatever you like and the KC will register it. If you fail to put a colour on they will still register it. I could register a pink and white weim if I wanted to Maybe the club will succeed in having the KC change the registrations to standard and non-standard, but who knows.

I have heard that the blue has already been registered, but it was not something I could verify.

Personally, I think Germany should have the final say re the blues. It is something that in a few generations could have a great impact on the breed. I do feel though that a lot of weims are now sandy rather than grey because the blue is no longer seen - just as if you have a black dog in the genes of the brown (eg GSP or GWP) it improves the brown colour and the eye colour of the brown dogs. (so a GWP breeder told me recently at a show when I commented that I LOVED her black / white GWP, (but then again I LOVE black GSP's))

Nina and Jensen

[Irena]

I was wondering if anyone knows where to find older FCI (and deeper into the past, the German Weim Club) standards? To see how colours were treated in them, and what has changed?

To me one of the most mysterious things is how come we only see Blues in the US - if they were such a "normal" colour in Europe, there would be more of them?

Also, I would be really interested in showing a true Blue (pls ignore the pun) Weim to the German Weim Club (it being the original creator of the breed) and asking them if THIS colour is OK or not OK (not what the standard means or permits when it says "mouse grey" etc).

[Irena]

Nina, stop scaring me (pink and white Weims) ;D , I have already been looking at Weim pics with suspicion - I am not at ALL sure I could definitely tell a grey from a blue if there was nothing to compare it to.

alkemist said:

Personally, I think Germany should have the final say re the blues.

I think so too, but as Anne pointed out to me yesterday, the AKC, for instance, does not have to look back at the German or whatever standard - if they did not accept LH's (contrary to the original standard), and if they accepted fawn and blue Dobermans (something you can't show at FCI shows), then why would they worry about the Weim standard. But that's AKC, so I'm still interested to find out what the truth is (if any) about this issue on this side of the Atlantic.

[marjolein]

I think I have some older standards. I'll look them up when I have the time.
This Tell, was sold to America under restrictions. He wasn't supposed to be bred from, but despite the agreement, the owner still did it. Well, that's what I've been told.

[anne]

<<This Tell, was sold to America under restrictions. He wasn't supposed to be bred from, but despite the agreement, the owner still did it. Well, that's what I've been told. >>

I can expound on this. Again from my essay:

Tell’s German papers had the following qualification noted on it:
Use for breeding permissible only if the qualifications for first or second prize under the regulation of the organization for Jugendprufing (Youth Trials) are subsequently approved. Since Cäsar von Gaiburg has a black nose, blackish tinge on his back, relatively proportionately short ears and his eye color is not pure amber, one should be careful concerning his descendents, and in doubtful cases, inform the office of the keeper of the stud book. (Carr)

Homer Carr, an early and renowned Weimaraner breeder, in his article on the Blue Weimaraner, mentions that this Youth Trial clause is not uncommonly seen in the papers of Weims imported to the United States. The second sentence describes some of Tell’s unusual characteristics, but again, there is no indication here that Tell was cross bred. However, Dr. Werner Petri’s Der Deutsche Vorstehhund notes more information in German Klub records, a typed report by Kullmer noting Tell’s “touch of black over the entire back, hair very short, eyes not of pure amber color.” After that there were also hand-written comments doubting the reliability of Tell’s breeder, and “Verdict: Useless for breeding most likely a Doberman cross.” (qtd. in Alexander and Isabell 53). It is uncertain who hand wrote these comments.

As far as AKC was concerned, they investigated his papers and after he acquired the 10 show points necessary, he was registered as a purebred Weimaraner. There were no breeding restrictions (as you know AKC does not monitor breeding). And as far as anyone in the US was concerned the AKC considered Tell pure.

Tell was not sold with restrictions on the German side, although as noted there were hand written comments in the records according to Weimaraner Ways which quoted from Dr. Petri's book. Indeed, Holt was clear with the Germans that he wanted Tell for breeding.

Tell's pedigree is available on the BlueBanshee site
www.angelfire.com/mt/bluebansheeweims/casar.zip

[anne]

<<but as Anne pointed out to me yesterday, the AKC, for instance, does not have to look back at the German or whatever standard - if they did not accept LH's (contrary to the original standard), and if they accepted fawn and blue Dobermans (something you can't show at FCI shows), then why would they worry about the Weim standard.>>

Elizabeth Wood's article addresses this issue to some degree. Americans tend to do things their own way. We certainly haven't used the "It's allowed in Germany" reasoning to accept LH's..... but this was the reasoning the powers that be DID use for not wanting the Blues. Which is interesting. What Wood points out in her article is that the Germans had reason to support the WCA's resistance to accepting Blues because teh Americans were supplying a big market to the post-war impoverished Germans. They had reason to be cooperative with the WCA's stance against the Blues to keep the market open.

Wood's article is located here
www.weim.net/twn/General/EWood%20-%20StandardRevisions(5-92essay).htm
From her article:
Study of the AKC "WSF", the transcript of the "Minutes of the 1950 Board of Governors Meeting", and Weimaraner Magazines from 1966 to 1971 -- the years that separate the longhair and the "blue" disqualifications -- reveals that the WCA has almost traditionally ignored the German standard for the breed unless it accorded with the position the WCA already wished to take on a given Standard issue.[7] The WCA's disqualification of long-hair, despite the German Klub's protest ("Only the mother club is allowed to make up a standard") is itself testimony to this attitude.[8] In fact, it appears that the decisions of the WCA actually influenced the policy of the German Klub, rather than the other way round. By 1965, the year that the disqualification of long coats was approved by AKC, the Germans had placed a ban on breeding longhairs with shorthairs. Pressured by the WCA, the Germans then agreed to provide American breeders with information regarding the coat types of Weimaraners being bred in various kennels in Germany.[10]


Evidence that the Germans were willing to go to rather extraordinary lengths to preserve the American market for their dogs is so overwhelming that it cannot be ignored in consideration of these issues. This was especially true during the early years of importation following WWII and so, must be taken into account when considering the "story" of the "blue" Weimaraner. The transcript of the "Minutes of the 1950 Board of Governors Meeting", for example, suggests that, if the Germans formally rejected Casar v. Gaibfrg's registration, they rejected it only after some members of the WCA had pressured them concerning the status of the dog.



In fact, the 1950 "Minutes", letters from the German Klub President Heinz Kullmer, and several old German articles all suggest that dark gray colors, including the color called "blue" in this country, were acceptable (and often called "mouse-gray")in Germany up until the WCA made it clear that the color was not acceptable in America and actively solicited a German response on the issue in 1970.[12] This response, the second of two letters written by Herr Kullmer on the subject, was printed with an English "translation" in the Weimaraner Magazine in April 1971.

[anne]

<<Of course the same Weim can look absolutely different under various lighting, and it can and does look "silver" too>>

Hopefully Leslie will post a picture of her Blue. In some lighting she looks absolutely Gray, the only tell tale sign that she's blue is not her coat color but her nose color.

My Blue is quite charcoal in color and it's quite distinguishable as not being the same as Gray

[Leslie]

I promise to give links soon to see Ellie's color and a comparison next to the gray's. Getting late tonite :-) Thanks for posting all that info, Anne.

[Leslie]

Here's another link to the Bluebanshee site. It seems we can't access it via remote linking. You'll have to type in the casar.zip
www.angelfire.com/mt/bluebansheeweims/ You may have to paste it all it. One word. The Blue Banshee site is great for it's content, but can be a bit hard to navigate. Be sure to poke around at the links.

[Leslie]

OK, here are a few photo's of Ellie. First, take a look at my website (In progress) www.greendolphin.com/us/
Then I did a quick webpage of photo's to compare tones. www.greendolphin.com/us/2tone/2tone.html

[anne]

Thanks Leslie. (Hey, there's Andy and Shadow!)

[Leslie]

Yup, you might also recognize Cody. Did you know Allison?

[slava]

anne said:

My Blue is quite charcoal in color and it's quite distinguishable as not being the same as Gray

Wow! Great photo. Just day and night!
But don't fool me. It's not weim ;D It's miner's dog!

BTW anybody knows what are genetic codes for weimaraners color?

[Irena]

I have been thinking about it and I wonder, are there are reasons why blues lovers in the US can't get together and form a new breed, say, the American Blue Weimaraner, and get the AKC to accept it? I am sure this has been done before with other breeds? I am being serious about this one.