Mismarking

[tasha]

another sign is excessive drinking....

[christina]

Hello Tasha,

Thanks for your suggestions. I did an ACTH test a few years ago, because I suspected Addison's with Kimber - but the test came back negative for Addison's as well as Cushing's. It's the same test for both illnesses, since they are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. Kimber's coat started to "turn" at the age of 8 months - he is now 8 years and it is getting from bad to worse, both in colour, looks and feel. It is so frustrating.

I did not know that Cushing's also turns a Weim coat orange, but I do know that any endocrine disorder does exactly that. I know addisonian Weims whose coats have turned orange, and every hypothyroid Weim I know has got an orange tinge to the coat too. - I am now reading that the coats of most dogs with "Coat Funk" turn orange too - and the ones I have read about are not Weims, but Malamutes, Huskies and Akitas. So I have to conclude that orange coat tingeing has got some connection to a malfunctioning endocrine system. I recently found this observation confirmed by the vets who have studied this condition of "Coat Funk".

Kimber's condition frustrates me no end. Particularly since I am now beginning to believe that there is nothing that I can safely try to restore his coat. I fear that in a few years Kimber will be bald from top to toe . From what I have read over the past 2 days, one last resort is trying something called "Missing Link" - some Malamute owners report that it helped - but others have no luck with it. Any other treatment would be invasive or dangerous with no guarantee of success. Kimber is not in pain or distress - he does not know what he looks like - so I am not prepared to take the risk of extreme measures.

Christina

[tasha]

cushings can sometimes be missed in the tests there are two types, Kanes tests were borderline so he was left undiagnosed even though he showed all the symptoms, his tests were being misjudged because of some of the other chemicals he was on showing through in the tests so increasing other levels. When those drugs were stopped the cushings came through with big flags flying so to speak. A tumor in either of the systems concerned might not show in the usual tests, kane had tumors in both.

Have you had your dog DNA tested?? It might bring up something different your not expecting. Sounds more like your dog isn't producing a chemical he needs...

[christina]

Hi Tasha,

Do you know what those tests done on Kane were called? Since Cushing's is not an AI disease, my knowledge about it is only vague. I was not aware that there are other conclusive tests for Cushing's other than an ACTH, which Kimber had in 2002. At that time he was on no other medication than Soloxine for his Hypothyroidism. The results of his test then were clear :
1st cortisol was 34 nmol/l and 2nd cortisol was 266 nmol/l
At the time I was suspecting Addison's, but with this test that possibility was ruled out..... and as I understand it, this reading also ruled out Cushing's.
Kimber does not look or act cushingoid at all - unless his coat were an indicator... but he's had that nearly all his life - but in view of your comments I will ask my vet again about it. Kimber is on half a tbl. of pred (2.5 mg) per day for his IBD, but since he weighs 33 kg, this dosage of steroids is really minimal. Still... there could be an accumulative factor.

You are very likely spot on that his body isn't producing a chemical it needs - burning question is .... which one We know from a second ACTH test that he is producing too much sex hormone ... sadly it did not indicate which hormone he is not producing enough of

No, I have not had a DNA test - what would we be looking for with a DNA test ? - and would I have to ask for something specific ?

Many thanks,
Christina

[tasha]

the kennel club over here do a dna test but not sure which problems it brings up I know cushings was one that they are looking to develop but not sure how far down the line they have got with it. Kanes was tumor caused and he was finally put to sleep because the tumors had spread to his spine and I decided that quality of life was better than quantity so to speak.

I'll check with my vet which tests we did, to be honest he had so many done it was a bit scary but it took a good three months to get him diagnosed properly and at that point he was nearly dead from steroid meds which were making his problem worse because of his poor liver functions :-(

Regarding the mismarking can you send me details of the dogs peds for the ones that you know of please, I am cross referencing at the moment but need more dogs to check against. The two lines that I have so far both match with an american and an english line through a half brother and half sister mating which was then repeated down further down the line. Wendy can I have a copy of your picture too please??

Thanks Tasha x

[Alkemist]

Christina Jensens coat is going tan / orange in patches, they do look like mismarks but he has not had them since birth, and they have got worse with his MCTs, which I think has been possibly linked as auto-immune related by some researchers. His mother also has developed these patches with age, she is also affected by various lumps etc.

Jensen was groomed yesterday for about 1/2 hour with a rubber mitt and his fur just kept on coming out, it was very fluffy and each time we thought it was done, more came out. We have accepted that his coat problems are just related to his condition.

Nina

[tasha]

are MCT hereditary??

[christina]

Hello Nina,

I don't know much about Mast Cell Tumours, so I looked it up. This website explains it very well.
www.kateconnick.com/library/mastcelltumor.html

MCT are not very well understood at present, and maybe Jensen's orange coat patches are somehow connected to this cancer, I would not know. But I have observed that Weimaraners with endocrine problems like Hypothyroidism or Addison's disease will get orange tinges of varying degrees. With my Kimber it is *very* pronounced. My Thomas's coat turned orange when his thyroid glands were sick (eu-thyroid syndrome) due to the preds. I have a friend with an addisonian & hypothyroid Weim who "reads" her dogs coat like a "barometer" .... she knows his thyroids are "off" when his coat turns a shade more orange..... - It's only anecdotal evidence, but in my mind there is no doubt that a Weim with a coat that turns orange is likely to have an endocrine problem of some sort. This endocrine 'turning orange' is not necessarily the case with other breeds. It must have something to do with the specific colour composition of the Weimaraner coat. I don't understand it myself, but I know of too many Weims like that for it to be just chance.... Have Jensen's thyroids ever been checked? I am not saying he must be hypothyroid, but I am assuming that Jensen is on prednisolone medication (?) - and preds can lower the thyroid function considerably (as it happened with Thomas). Preds could also be responsible for him losing his coat. If Jensen were eu-thyroid (meaning his thyroid glands are sick), then supplementation with Kelp might help to kick-start the sluggish thyroid glands. If, however, Jensen were hypothyroid, then Kelp would not help at all, he would need Soloxine. - But I am speculating here, Nina, I am not a vet, and the above is only meant to be thought provoking.

Tasha - The above website mentions that .... "There appears to be a genetic component, as certain breeds are predisposed to developing MCT..." - so it seems the answer to your question is "yes, probably".....

Christina

[tasha]

do we have any pictures anywhere?

[christina]

There are a couple of macro shots of Kimber's coat in the thread further down, called "Wire-haired Weimaraners" .... - haven't seen any of Jensen yet.

Christina

[Alkemist]

Tasha with regards to the hereditary links - most vets will say not, but I have a 50% rate of cyst removal in the affected litter and a 20% rate of MCTs - 2 in a litter of 10. Jensens mother had 3 cysts removed about age 1, but we were told it wasn't hereditary so not to worry!!!!!
Christina theres a lot to go at there thanks, tbh seems the preds are doing more harm than good! Will re-read later and see if there is anything else in there, but at the mo my 2.5 year old is trying to help me post - not good hehe.

Nina

Nina

[tasha]

The literature that I have read seems to indicate that it has a hereditary link but I'm going to talk to Diana O who records MCT's for the breed. Is Jensen a stud dog?? If he is will you continue to breed from him if there are risks of passing it along to his progeny?

Lots of breeders say not to worry about things.. helps them sell puppies.

[marjolein]

I think Nina is one of the most sensible breeders/studdog owners in the UK. The minute she found out about the problems, she stopped using him at stud, despite the fact that I really think he's a gorgeous dog!

[tasha]

it takes a strong person to do that, nina you should be very proud of yourself many others wouldn't.

[Alkemist]

Hey you guys stop it - I'm going to have to get a fanclub going here
Well as Jensen is my only available bloodline I lost the lot, (hence Anya) but tbh I think there are quite a few peeps out there that would do the same. The owner of the bitch in the litter who also got MCTs speyed her bitch, and she was doing really well in the ring too. And they also lost their other bitch to MCT's, so it's them that I really feel for.

I do remember though Tasha that I rang Diana O and she said she wasn't really keeping those records anymore?? Also the breed health survey picked up nothing indicating a problem with MCT's.

Sorry to hijack the thread a bit Christina

Nina

[tasha]

thats a pity I might have a chat with her about it am seeing her soon at training