Wire-haired Weimaraners

[christina]

<img src="http://tinypic.com/jkvpqp.jpg" alt="Image hosted by TinyPic.com">

Hi Ralph,

Thanks for taking an interest. I don't mind at all attaching a pic - trouble is, that *normally* photographs of his coat are very deceptive. But I will try and show one that I have taken specifically to 'bring out' the coat. It's not good, but probably the best I have. That one was taken just under 2 years ago, when the biopsy patches were just about to grow in. In this pic you can make out a dark "eel-stripe" - he normally does not have that, this only happens on the rare occasions when his coat is actually in "growing mode". It does not show it in this pictures very well either, but Kimber's coat *really is* very orange/ginger - by now all over, except for his head.

OK - lets see if I have mastered Marjolein's instruction of how to attach a pic - fingers X

Christina

[marjolein]

You almost did it right Christina. I'll tell you how to sort out the last bit. The part that's purple, should be put between purple bit [/img]
If you do that, you'll get this:

[marjolein]

I have never seen a dog this orange btw. Really weird!!

[christina]

Thank you, Marjolein...... one of these days I will get it right <VBG>

This picture is, btw, almost flattering, since his coat was back then starting to grow and there was a lot of new grey coming through .... in reality the ginger/orange effect is a lot worse....

Christina

[ralph]

hi

I've seen this before. Once, but i did. Thnx for placing the pic, i've got a clear picture of how the dog looks like. As i said before, i've seen this before. In dutch we call this "brand". I really don't have an englisch word for it, but if I translate it, it's called fire (c'mon dutch and belgium boarders what's an adequate translation for brand in this context).
Brand is the color you see at the head, butt, toes or chest of for example a rottweiler or a dober.
When a weim has that colour, you are dealing with a minor,rather harmless, genetic disorder.
Nothing to do with the water he drinks or the food he is eating. It's just in its genes.
The only thing i cannot understand in this picture is the grey haires that are arising from the bold spots. That's something i have never seen. I will dig in to my "library" but i'm pretty sure we are talking about a phenomenon which we are calling "brand".
Maybe Marjolein from whom i know she a veterinary assistant can shed some light on the phenomenon "brand".

Gr. Ralph


ps.
come to think of it, maybe windy spot can explain one and another too. About "brand" that is.

[christina]

Many thanks Ralph, that is very interesting - I guess "brand" is the same in Dutch as it is in German.... so I do understand the literal meaning. But it would be great if Marjolein were able to explain what this means related to a dog's coat condition.

I can explain the sprouting of the grey hairs. Kimber's hairs do not grow for very long period of times. I know this to be true, because the shaved biopsy area's stayed totally bald for about 10 months after the biopsies. The histology report stated .....

"The only abnormal finding in the biopsies of the affected skin was a very mild inflammation around the hair follicles, which is a little surprising but of doubtful significance. The hair follicles themselves are completely normal, as are the hair shafts within them. There was also perhaps a little less pigment than expected but this is difficult to judge. Thus, the histopathology does not provide us with an explanation for the hair defects. I have looked at the hair samples again today - the structural defects are striking! The pathologist and I agree that there is probably a cyclic problem of hair shaft formation during the first part of the hair growth cycle, as the hair structure towards the root is largely normal. As almost all of Kimber' s hairs in the biopsy samples were in the resting stage of the hair cycle, the absence of visible defects in these hair shafts is not surprising. A higher chance to 'catch' abnormal hair formation would be to obtain biopsies when Kimber is heavily moulting....."

.... only.... this "heavily moulting" business is a non-event. Kimber has moulted three times in his life - twice normally and the third time excessively. He is a couple of months short of 8 yrs old. When those pictures were taken, he WAS indeed heavily moulting - 10 weeks non-stop. The biopsy areas were filled in (with healthy GREY and SOFT Weimaraner hairs) within a couple of weeks. What you see in the pictures, is a few days into this growing cycle. Other new healthy grey hairs throughout the body also started to grow, albeit at a much slower rate than the areas of the biopsies. By the end of the 10 week moulting period Kimber looked "brindle". Then it all stopped. This was nearly 2 years ago - nothing since. The coat is not renewing itself, it just gets worn - and turns ginger. It is my guess that the "striking structural defects" the pathologist is talking about are just wear and tear, but who knows ?

... and there is some other riddle. The coat of Kimber's sire (who is, like Kimber, also hypothyroid) has turned almost white. This dog has had a beautiful Weim grey coat before he was diagnosed. In contrast to Kimber, whose coat is dense, worn and needle sharp, his sire's coat is now soft like feather down, very thin - and white.....

This other dog with "brand" - did you touch him? How did his coat feel? When I stroke Kimber his coat feels like a prickly conifer. Is it a symptom of "brand" that the growing cycle of hairs stays at the resting stage for years?

Thank you so much Ralph, and if you find out more, please let me know. I am determinate to get to the bottom of all this.

Christina

[moonbeam]

Could it be Cushings disease? I read somewhere that the coat turns orange with that.

Mariy

[marjolein]

He's talking about dobe markings. I don't agree though. I think Cushings could defo be an option!!!

[ralph]

Christina,

I just had a quick look but I cannot find anything about brand so far.

And yes I touched the other weim with "brand", it was just a touch.
It felt more like very, very, dry, like it could brak off at any moment.

I'll try to gather some info about brand related to weims

gr. Ralph

[christina]

Hi Mariy,

That's unlikely, since Kimber shows no clinical symptoms of Cushing's. Some years back we did an ACTH test to check for Addison's, which would also have shown up Cushing's, but this test was totally normal. Kimber shows currently no signs of any illness. His IBD and Hypothyroidism are well under control. This coat thing has become an obsession with me - it does not seem to bother Kimber at all - but I want to know what is going on....

Christina

[ralph]

has the color always been like this
in other words,is the dog born with it

gr. Ralph

[christina]

***It felt more like very, very, dry, like it could brak off at any moment.


Hmmm - the very dry coat and the 'braking off' image would fit the picture.... But I just googled 'Dobe Markings', and the description - if this is what "brand" means - sounds quite different from Kimber's coat....

www.weimaraners.com/standard.htm

Markings
Bicolored Tan
It is common knowledge that the breed carries recessive genes that produce bicolored tan markings, also referred to as dobe markings or the mark of the hound, which are light-beige or orange hairs above each eye and on the muzzle, throat, forechest, feet, inner aspect of the legs, and under the tail in the typical black-and-tan hound or Doberman pattern. This hereditary trait is unrelated to changes caused by sun damage or shedding, and most breeders regard the markings as extremely undesirable.

Tan markings, unfortunately, are not mentioned in the American standard, probably because it would be hard to give clear description that would not penalize sunburned coats. Failure to mention bicolored tan markings in the standard means that judges cannot penalize dogs with this recessive trait; however, judges can (and should) fault them as an atypical color.

The tan markings are less distinct on a dobe-marked Weimaraner than on a fawn Doberman. If the area over a Weimaraner's eyes appears tan, the other typical pattern areas should be carefully examined. All areas are not always marked, and it is more difficult to detect the markings in the lighter shades of gray. The faint markings may be detectable only in bright sunlight. They are less apparent, for some reason, in the late fall and winter and intensified during the summer months.....

Christina

[christina]

No Ralph - Kimber was born with a beautiful soft silver grey coat. Those coat changes started when he was approx. 8 months old - To think that we had the pick of the litter ......

Christina

[Steve Graham]

For some photos of a Stockhaar see www.duckswild.com/stockhaar
This is Tinka von der Wapelburg owned by Gerhard Eiben, treasurer of the Weimaraner Klub e. V.
Steve Graham
North Plains, Oregon USA

[Weims]

just looked at the pics of the stockhaar..... my bitch Leah has those markings in her coat but just on her neck? her litter brother doesnt have it, nor does her mum, or daughters.

Lynn

[Cheryl]

My new weim pup who ended up in a shelter where I rescued him from looks exactly like the picture of the weim on the first post, exact color, tail, hair, etc. Only he still has his front dewclaws, too.

He came with the name Ducky, which fits him, somehow:) He also has an umbilical hernia someone should have taken care of but never did, so he's going to have that repaired tomorrow night.

He looked awful when I first got him home, bumps and scabs, hair loss, especially on toes, muzzle, belly, must be allergic to corn and wheat because a week later he's looking normal. He also had thick mucousy discharge from his eyes, inflamed surface surrounding his eyes, smelly ears, and a traveling vet with the service (army, marines, navy) saw him as I worried about his condition, said he has an autoimmune problem with his third eyelid and needs some type of steriod drops most likely for the rest of his life, he's not a year old yet. Whe he & I get back from Fairbanks for his surgery and my veterinarian assistant class I'll try to post pictures of him.