Breeding Questions

[daniela]

As this seems to be a more universal meeting point for Weimaraner enthusiasts and breeders, I would like to scope out some international perspectives on the following:

How many times do you think it is acceptable to breed from a bitch during her lifetime and why.......?

What do you think is an acceptable age to breed a first litter from a bitch and why? When does a bitch become too old to take a first litter or last litter? Why?

Can the same questions be asked of stud dogs?

So many questions....

[marjolein]

The Dutch Weimaraner club has some rules for breeding and I'll definately follow their guidelines for my bitches. Minimun age is 24 months, although I'd preferably see them at least 2.5 years old. They're completely matured by then.
In Holland bitches can have a max of 3 litters. Although I don't really think bitches can't have more, I do agree with the fact that she's had her change then to widen the genepool (or not, in which case less litters might be better). A bitch should have her first litter before the age of 5. This is because of the risks of a ceasarian if the bitch is older. If she's had a litter before the age of 5, she can be bred from until she's 8. Don't have to explain this I think.

For a dog we don't have a maximun age, but there is a minimun age which is 18 months. A LH can be used 3 times and a SH dog can be used 4 times. Again, this has everything to do with the genepool.

[daniela]

Thanks Marj.

The stud dog limits are a real eye opener! Is this a club guideline/rule or a KC rule?

[marjolein]

These are club guideline. The KC guidelines don't say a thing about the age of studs, but they say a bitch should be at least 16 months old before she can have her first litter. She can't be mated for the first time after the day she's become 72 months and shouldn't be mated after the age of 96 months.

[szarasfora]

marjolein said:

For a dog we don't have a maximun age, but there is a minimun age which is 18 months. A LH can be used 3 times and a SH dog can be used 4 times. Again, this has everything to do with the genepool.

You mean a male (stud) dog can be used 3/4 times? A year or in his lifetime?

[marjolein]

A lifetime.

[tasha]

personally I think the restriction on a stud dog is perfectly reasonable would make people a little more careful about who they breed to and when if they only have a max number of times a dog can be used.

[marjolein]

I echo that Tasha!

[Kobie]

In Belgium we don't have "rules" conserning the amount of litters. If you are not a member of the Belgian weimaranerclub, you can breed so many litters that you want ! Some people breed a litter every year with their bitches.

If you are a member, you follow the club rules. We have bred Diddles 2 times, and that's it for her.
Clubrules are: bitch, min. 2 years old, hipscored, huntmerid and a couple of showresults to have a recommanded litter.
dog: min 18 months old, same rules as for a bitch. Dogs can sire as many litters as they want. If they are the sire of 1 or 80 litters, all is ok

Personal, I think it's not right to breed how many litters that you want, it's like in puppyfarms PITY

[szarasfora]

marjolein said:

A lifetime.

I understand the concern about the genepool within the country populatiuon. But can the stud dog be used outside the country (outside the club indeed) without limits?

Can you use the same foreign stud dog (or the same frozen semen) as many times as you wish? if yes, what about genepool?

Your club rules concerning bitches are OK, the ones concering males are too strict in my opinion. And what if there aren't enough stud dogs?
I think that these rules limit the breeders to make their breeding decisions.

And what if there is only one puppy born in a litter., Does this mating count? Is it still a risk for the genepool?

[Rachel]

This is always a subject that can cause debate and I have found in some breeds people get quite heated about how many litters a dog should or should not have.

It is a fact that some bitches are fabulous mothers, fabulous producers, and in those cases 3 to 4 litters does not take it out of her. Some bitches are not good producers, or good mothers and there fore should be retired from breeding even after 1 litter.

Of course saying that the clubs in the UK state 3 litters only in the lifetime of a bitch.

But then what is a good producer ? Some people would say quantity of pups, others would say healthy pups, others would say only if champion stock is produced.

But what about the champion dog that is actually not a good producer, yet his brother who is not the show dog is the one actually producing better pups ? Just because he is a champion people flock to the dog to use it, but it may not produce better stock. I read this in an article by Andrew Brace, I seem to think it was in a Pet Plan info sent to me once. What are your views on this, should a dog be used at stud more just because its a champion, even if it is not producing good stock ?

As to age of a girl on her first litter, I have turned people away recently with a 6 year old bitch wanting her first litter. They were not really doing it for any good reasons. I also had someone last year and their girl was 8 years and they wanted a litter, again pointed out the KC rules, club rules, but also the welfare of the bitch was not really being looked at.
I prefer to breed a first litter 2-3 years of age. Nearer two if possible. But it all depends on how many seasons she has had, and timing.

As for how many litters should a stud dog have??? I do not think a dog should be over used in a year, but what is over use ? I would think 3-4 litters in a lifetime is too little. Again it depends on what the dog is producing. Also with regards to rules, in the UK their is no rule on how many times a dog has a litter with the clubs. I think their should be a limit.

I am very interested to read about rules from other countries, what about Australia, do you have a limit on litters with bitches ?

Rachel

[tasha]

This is something that I wonder about is it really too much?

Why should there be one rule for the bitch and another for the dog?

Ok the bitch does all the work and it does take alot out of her but when you consider the number of dogs that are bred each year with the same genetics I see no reason why a stud dog should any more than the bitches.

I was offered a dog that has been bred with numerous times he's a very popular dog but those genes are now out there so why keep repeating it? Unless of course its a fund raiser? The dog I've used has only been used twice now and I am more than happy with that if I want to use the same genes again there are other dogs from similar lines that I can go to same for any breeder its all part of the research you are supposed to do.

It does limit breeders choices but is that really a bad thing??? in the UK we have so many dogs being bred and so many going into rescue very early that a restriction really would help. Our biggest problem is that when breeders don't like the club rules they either don't bother to be a member or they join a club where there are no breed rules at all.

[Rachel]

I would go with the idea of limiting stud use in the UK, but of course some of the main people are not in clubs anyway.
One question with regards to hip scoring, is it required in the club rules now or is it still the breeders choice ?
Rachel

[Sylvia]

The rule for the stud dog is only for in our own country.
And it is based on the amount of dog (puppies) produced in our country. There are only 200-250 puppies bred in year. So we don't need a male that produces many litters because the genetic diversity is fast gone then.
If you look over more generations, for example if a male produces 20 litters (in our small country) and his son does the same again and the son after him again. What is left of the diversity???
In my opinion you are only producing puppies instead of improving the breed.

I must not think of it that my males would be used so many times....

In my opinion not enough stud dogs is not an issue, our rules aren't that hard. So if people put some time in a show and doing a test/trial and next to that the health scans it is not a problem at all.

I think there are enough stud dogs around that it doesn't have to limit your breeding, if you are interested in a male dog you probably know that for a long time before already and could already arrange something with the stud owner. I think there is no problem at all.