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Post by mike on Mar 22, 2006 9:42:22 GMT 1
Does anyone have any info on how countries like Germany and Denmark secured exemptions for working dogs?
I believe that it was the Swedish study that helped secure the exemption in Denmark? Is there any way I can get this confirmed? Would anyone have some contact details of the appropriate person to contact in Denmark?
In countries where a ban on docking is in place, is anyone actually monitoring the working dog population to see if there is an increase in damage? Is anyone actively trying to get the bans overturned?
I am looking for any info that may help persuade Scottish MP's and also the British Lords.
Thanks in advance
Mike
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Post by marjolein on Mar 22, 2006 11:17:00 GMT 1
In Germany, Weimaraners are only sold to hunters, so it's easy to control the docking issue.
In Holland, we don't dock anymore and we don't see more tail damages than before the docking ban.
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Post by mike on Mar 22, 2006 11:49:31 GMT 1
Mar, Thanks for your reply  When you say you don't see more damage do you actually have any evidence (other than anecdotes) to support this? (not being awkward just trying to understand!) You tell me their is no more damage (although you have LH which may make a difference) yet a Swedish friend has had to paint her kitchen and hallway red so she doesn't have to constantly clean the blood from the walls, I am not saying your wrong but the Germans didn't orignally start docking them for fun did they?  In this country the anti's are asking us to produce evidence that it does prevent injury, I am just wondering if there is evidence from the countries that have banned it of no increase in damage (as in a peer reviewed study) Thanks  |
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Post by marjolein on Mar 22, 2006 15:28:20 GMT 1
Well Mike, I don't really have evidence, but it's based on what I see in our practice every day. We do have a couple of hunters, but not too many. We had to dock a couple of dogs during the years which I can remember. One was a Dalmation, can't remember what caused it, but surely not hunting. The other was a Flatcoated Retriever. This dog was not properly raised and was over excited every time someone came in. He hurted his tail by wagging it excessively and it had to be amputated partially. Third dog was a Shepard, a longhaired one. Not a hunting accident either.
I can only remember one hunting accident, it was a Spaniel. The owner didn't really know what happened, there was no dense vegetation to be found, so it remains a mystery.
My girls go through very dense vegetation every now and then and never have an injury, but like you've already said, their tails are properly protected.
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Post by marjolein on Mar 22, 2006 15:28:43 GMT 1
Docking is forbidden now in Belgium as well, since the first of January of this year.
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Post by daniela on Mar 22, 2006 18:03:22 GMT 1
Hi Mike
A press release from the Kennel Club:
089.06 Kennel Club Position on Tail Docking Vote
Tuesday, 21 March, 2006
On Tuesday 14 March Members of Parliament voted in favour of banning tail docking with an exemption for certain working dogs. They also voted to ban the showing of these legally docked working dogs.
Whilst the Kennel Club very much welcomes, on welfare grounds, the decision by MPs to exempt certain working dogs from a ban on tail docking, it remains confused as to why such legally docked dogs will not be able to be shown. The Kennel Club is of the view that it is unfair to penalise responsible and genuine working dog breeders and owners who quite legally and properly have their puppies docked in the interest of their welfare, by making it illegal for them to show these dogs.
This decision will also, sadly, precipitate the end of the Kennel Club’s concept of attempting to keep the working and exhibiting sides of the dog game as integrated as possible. Its ability to instil into show judges a sense of ‘form following function’ and hence a need for moderation, will be severely impaired by the move. Such a move as is proposed would institutionalise the segregation of show and working dogs in some breeds. It would also see the end to dogs which are legally docked in their country of origin competing at certain, though not all, UK shows and could not be said to improve the welfare position of already legally docked dogs .
The Kennel Club will be appealing to the Lords to attempt to rescind the ban on the showing of legally docked working dogs from the new clause on mutilations. The Kennel Club has stated that it would monitor docked dogs at Kennel Club licensed shows to ensure they had been docked legally and would disqualify from all wins at such shows any docked dogs which had not been legally docked.
The advantages of this would be as follows:
It would deal with the dog-show breeder who attempted to dock illegally simply in order to win in the show ring – the Kennel Club has proved it can do this and has done so with ear cropping for well over 100 years.
It would provide Defra with a ready-made ability to monitor compliance with the law which would otherwise have to be provided by Defra
It would therefore allow for better enforcement.
It would enable true working dogs to benefit from the animal welfare issues that the exemption of such genuine working dogs would allow.
The difficulty in assessing which dogs have naturally bobbed tails would be left to experts thus relieving government authorities of this difficult task.
Said Caroline Kisko, Kennel Club Secretary “While the Kennel Club is relieved that MPs have voted to exempt working dogs from a ban on tail docking, it seems extremely unfair that people wishing to show their working dogs will be effectively punished for complying with the law and thus safeguarding the welfare of their dogs”.
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Post by lizgundog on Mar 22, 2006 21:43:03 GMT 1
This is not good news Daniela - in Australia we were hoping that the outcome of the U.K. may sway our politicians into allowing working dogs to be docked as is done in Germany. Hope you have success in altering the bill. When does the ban come into force?
Liz.
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Post by mike on Mar 23, 2006 9:24:41 GMT 1
Liz, The ban will come into force at some point this summer. We are going to be in the farcical position of a complete ban in Scotland and a partial exemption in England and Wales  |
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Post by lizgundog on Mar 24, 2006 0:07:52 GMT 1
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the reply. Well Australia is no exception to farcical docking bans. It is totally banned in some states of Australia and vet only in 2 - all of the Dobermann people throughout Australia have organized to register their puppies through one particular person who can organize a vet certificate and all of their puppies are docked. With our Weimaraners we have those who don't dock, those that defy the authorities and hope they won't get fined and those who partially dock and leave the tail looking as though it was never docked but it actually looks like a dalmation tail - no curl at the end. There are people who are still trying to have the docking ban overturned, it has been place for a couple of years now and we are still trying to have it overturned. Change of government is probably our only hope now. There also people recording all tail injuries which we hope will be taken into consideration. In Australia we have some very nasty grasses and bushes that just tear away at long whippy tails that have no feathering. I belive it's the feathering on the tail that truly protects it. We are a shooting family and also have a labrador - his tail is a leathal weapon. Unfortunately our next pup will no doubt have a much longer tail than we are used to, I am sure my husband will shut the tail gate of the car on a long tail, he just wouldn't think about what he is doing as we have never had to be careful in the past. Please keep us all informed on the docking outcome - we are all most interested.
Liz.
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Post by daniela on Mar 29, 2006 20:23:40 GMT 1
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Post by narelle on Mar 29, 2006 22:40:09 GMT 1
Very interesting Daniela and even more interesting to me was the aspect of defining in more detail about the dog being your responsibility and your responsibilities to ensure no one else docks the tails. Your law is similar to ours; I am not sure if ours goes to the extent of responsibility or intention. Very disheartening, Australia did think we would be saved and possibly have our law reverted depending on the UK. When does it come into play?  Narelle PS Send me a private email about your suitors for Eden  |
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Post by daniela on Mar 30, 2006 20:54:34 GMT 1
Hi I am not particularly 'au fait' with the political process and thus I am not sure at the moment what stage the bill is at. I was advised that it would become law in and around October time but it is my understanding that it's certainly not over yet. Perhaps I should get up and sing? |
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Post by lizgundog on Mar 30, 2006 21:58:36 GMT 1
Please don't sing yet, everyone all around the world is hoping that some where someone will come to their senses and allow traditonally docked breeds (especially for hunting) to be allowed to dock again. If it's any help, Dr. Petri wrote in one of his books, that Weimaraners were docked to avoid the possibilty of 'Tail Excema' (hope that's spelt correctly). I read a couple of years ago that sweden was keeping a register for dogs with tail injuries, I know that some people in Australia are trying to keep records. What I can't understand is how you can dock for working in the field but you aren't allowed then to show those dogs - that's really odd, where's the English Kennel Club when you need them?
Liz.
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Post by daniela on Mar 30, 2006 22:50:09 GMT 1
I know, strange huh?
The Kennel Club is and has been very proactive in regard to this particular issue and will be appealing to the Lords to attempt to rescind the ban on the showing of legally docked working dogs from the new clause on mutilations.
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Post by mike on Mar 31, 2006 20:48:42 GMT 1
Lobbying the Lords is a fairly thankless task, I have written to 21 of their lordships and not had a single reply. Had a lovely reply from the lady who runs the tail damage database in Oz. She was kind enough to include a report from Dr Bob Hales that has some new arguments that can be used to counter the anti's. She also included a article written by Lainie Knox of
Ashlaren Weimaraners which was useful.
The bill will have its second reading in the Lords on Tuesday 18th of April. We will have a clearer idea of were this is going after that.
The idea that you cannot show a legally docked dog only applies to show were the public pay to enter. So the KC hopefully will be pushing for all shows to drop entry fees and make up the money some other way (inc. entry fees for gundogs, increased carparking, paying an exit fee....) the trouble is if I can think of half a dozen ways around this legislation so can the Lords and they have it within their power to remove the ammendment and ban the whole lot still....
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Post by Alkemist on Mar 31, 2006 21:04:02 GMT 1
Tonight I have seriously hacked off our local MP, and boy was I glad I did it, because I have discovered just how dangerous it is to rely on these people to know the facts about the things they are voting on!
I had Anya with us, and was at the MIL's, and upon leaving spotted the labour bunch canvassing in one of the only tory seated areas in the borough.
I pounced! I got Anya out of the car and showed him her happy nature and her tail, and asked him what he thought about the situation that I was now in over having to decide before a puppy was 5 days old, whether the dog was a working dog or a show dog, as Anya was both, but her offspring could not be both show and working dogs. He didn't have a clue what he had voted on. He didn't understand the implications of the bills decision and conditions, so seeing that he was not remotely interested in what I was saying, I resolved to keeping him in the street, in the rain, and defending his decision to approve such a ridiculous bill.
He routinely tried to imply that I was pro -docking, but stood corrected when I said I was pro-choice, and that the vote that he had made had taken away little of my choice other than whether to show my dog or not! I also advised him of the damage that he had inflicted on the future of many HPR breeds in particular (he didn't even know what a HPR was!) because of the split in the breeds re working / show lines (he REALLY struggled with that one!). He also asked me to quote how many Weims would be affected, and he gave up on that one when I said that there were at least 2000 breed club members nationally (I just threw a number at him tbh, hehe). I then reeled off the affected breeds as I saw them, and asked him if he thought that it was fair to allow me to continue to dock, but prevent me from showing.
He stated that he had no preference (balls!) but that the evidence provided to him by the vets and other organisations interested in the welfare of animals made him vote against docking. I reminded him that he hadn't really, as I could still dock, but just not show. I also asked him if the vets he spoke to were the same vets that charge £25 for a tail to be docked, at which he was flabbergasted.
Then I really laid into him about other issues, and that as soon as we could, we hoped to leave the UK to go even further down the pan with regards to drugs and crime and yobbery, and the possible affects they could have on our sons future. Then I laid into him about benefit cheats and other issues that Labour were failing to address. He asked where we were thinking of going - I said Sweden or Eire, 'oh and BTW, it is illegal to dock in Sweden, but that is not an issue for us there, at least we will know what is required of us'.
I had to let him go after a good 40 mins nagging hehe. He is going to get one of his cronies to write to me after he has checked whether I just made it all up! I also told him I'd love to be a councillor, and he said well join the party and be one - I told him that never on this earth would I ever ever ever want to have anything to do with Labour policies and government EVER. Not after this ridiculous bill. He then tried to list off the other political parties whose members voted for the bill. I replied, yes but this was a LABOUR bill, put forward BY LABOUR in a LABOUR PARLIAMENT, to which he had no answer.
Sorry this is a really long one, but given that this man claims over £100,000 in expenses alone I thought I had the right to keep him there...
Nina
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Post by Weims on Apr 1, 2006 10:12:07 GMT 1
Go Nina... Go Nina.... Well done you! We should all do that.
Lynn
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Post by lizgundog on Apr 1, 2006 22:55:02 GMT 1
Well done Nina, at least you have the opportunity to have a go - in Australia we didn't even get that chance, it wasn't a Federal Issue, most states in Australia have Labour governments and really into backyard deals with the Greenie element, anything for the greenie vote at present and they were the ones who have brought in tail docking bans - the Federal Government hasn't banned tail docking, technically if we could get permission to go onto Federal Land (which is usually a military site etc) we could dock and no one could fine you (our Federal Govt. is at present a Liberal or Conservative Government). Most issues in the state I live in are back yard deals with Greenies. They have banned duck shooting in most states of Australia through back yard deals with the greenies, and quail hunting in several states. It's getting to the stage in Australia we will all be forced to become poachers. History may repeat itself when ordinary people have to start breaking the law to do what has been done for hundreds of years.
Good Luck with your docking issues.
Liz.
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