Saddened :(

[weima]

I am saddened to read the front page of Dog World today

"Docking Vet In Trouble"

A vet has been taken before the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons Disciplinary Committee because he docked a litter of Weimaraner pups.

I am saddened at this as it is still LEGAL to dock in this country until 2007 & this 'crime' was committed in January 2006 How can the RCVS take such action when the vet hasn't actually committed an offence?

The breeder of the pups, Joanna McNaught, rang her own vet first, to ask him to dock the tails, & he said he wouldn't. That is his perogotive. SAhe then looked in the Yellow Pages & found a vet who would. I assume Ms McNaught is taking further action on the matter because 2 of the pups died afterwards & one developed an infection.

I have seen 100's of puppies docked over my lifetime in dogs & never have I known a puppy to die from being docked. In my last litter, a tail did look infected although after a few days bathed in salt water it sorted itself out.

"Mr McKenna (the vet in question) admits there were no thereapeutic reason but doesn't admit lack of prophylactic reasons" he said. He did not enquire about the dogs' lifestyles.... but he amputated all 11 tails. There was no evidence it was done without due care but no anaesthetic was used"

Now, I have never known a litter of pups be given anaesthetic to have their tails docked & also didn't know that the dogs' lifestyle should be common knowledge to the vet as yet.

It goes on to say that Weimaraner tails are usually given a long dock, but Mr McKenna docked the fully. Weimaraners are not Vizslas & do not have a long dock so I can only assume that the 'docked fully' meant that they were like Dobermans.

If the vet is found guilty, he will be struck off as a vet. Is it any wonder that vets don't like docking, for fear of their careers being ruined.

[tasha]

had to be a weimaraner didn't it

[greyflyte]

Thats pretty tragic.
I dock my own pups and have never had an infection.
We in NZ are still fighting the proposed legislation to ban docking.

[Cheryl]

It may be a saving grace if the vet had the breeder sign a release from liability since the pups were obviously healthy enough for the breeder to insist on the procedure...it seems very strange that 2 died and others infected...IMO it must have had to do w/the living conditions or lack of careful and frequent inspection on the breeders part...I may have been and still might be seen as neurotic in some people's opinion of my babies, human and animal alike, but they get searched by hand and eye every time they are within reach, as lovers constantly touch, so should we care for ours...because they depend upon us and I love their beauty, power and happiness...I'm hoping knucklehead Bully's lowered testosterone level will enable him to learn he doesn't have to bully his way into constant scabs on his forehead:( He gets warnings and plows right through, into another small nick:(

[syrinx]

I agree, Cheryl. Look at the breeder, not the Vet. My mother was taught to dock by a vet, and in about 25 or so years, docked over 100 litters of Min Pins. Not an infection, not a death. There is a chance that the deaths were not even related, really, unless autopsy proved it was, that would be questionable evidence. And if the infection was related to the docking, surely most of the 11 would have been infected (assuming the vet used the same equipment on all of them). Husbandry, I think. But this is the thin edge of the wedge. When they get finished with tail docking the Animal Rights guys will move on to the Brachiacephalic breeds, the very small, the large, they are after us all in the end.

Wendy

[Alkemist]

Unfortunately Wendy that is already happening - on the tail end (get it?) of this act there will be another - and it will look at banning breeds that are considered damaged - I wonder who is running this country sometimes - the government or the RSPCA or PETA or RCVS (or maybe it's just whoever gives the biggest donations!).....

If this litter was 11 pups btw not all of them might have survived anyway.............. but yes, it had to be a Weimaraner breeder didn't it......

Nina

[Cheryl]

Very sad and true...ladies...

I've wondered why people bred smashed noses and health problems for certain breeds of cats and dogs, there hasn't been any uproar about that, has there? I do love the look of the bulldogs but not the cats...seems that would be something to pursue as top of the list!

[tasha]

there are lots of things about some breeds I would love to change and for all the good the RSPCA does there is a heap that they do which they should be ashamed of, I don't agree with their political agenda neither would I have wasted so much valuable cash given in donations for an administration building.

The one thing I detest more than anything about them is the fact that they refuse to take older animals on or those with illness that they cannot sell on and the things you see them doing on the TV in reality rarely happen.

I don't know the breeder of these pups it might be that an inexperienced vet in this procedure has docked a litter of weimaraners incorrectly and as a consequence two of the pups have died and one has had a serious infection. This is the committees judgement and the fact that it is only for 28 days rather than a full suspension does give some way to seeing that prehaps all is not what it seems.

www.rcvs.org.uk/Shared_ASP_Files/UploadedFiles/D7A21545-774B-487B-BAA7-B8BDCD8D56F2_McKenna,JohnF_judgment.pdf

[greyflyte]

Cheryl its not the look of the dog that is meant to appeal.
What is important to remember is that all breeds had a reason for being bred, for being "made". They all had a job to do as they evolved next to man. With some breeds the reason has since ceased to exist ie bull baiting, Badger hunting, but the breeds still exist. What we as breeders have is an inheritance from the breeders of the past. We have an obligation to those past breeders to keep their breeds alive, as they were.
PETA and the like are ultimately looking at stopping anyone breeding animals at all, the little battles they are winning along the way will eventually win the war unless people get their heads out of the sand and take seriously what is happening.

Do most people want the ownership of pets to be banned??
I dont think so, but it is getting closer whether we like it or not.
Small step by small step until we realise too late that we have been backed into a corner.

PETA and the like have famous people and alot of money behind them and are incredibly organised and dedicated, what do we have? Separate individual breeders with not alot of unity. A few organisations spurred on by individuals who like us all have lives to run.
I feel our Kennel clubs should be doing alot more. They need to connect internationally and work out a forward plan to fight the growing darkness.
Sadly in our country our new Kennel Club president has in the past been clearly heard to say he is anti docking. Suddenly our Council of Docked breeds is being given a hard time by the Kennel club when previously it was promised all assistance to do its job. I despair.
Sorry this was so long.
Cyd

[stelei]

Hi ladies!

I get a bit angry about your arguments against the ban of docking. I hunt between 30 and 50 days in all sorts of terrain with my UNDOCKED dogs, and I have never had an injury to the tails!

It seems to me that your arguments are ONLY motivated by estethics, and what you are used to seeing on your show dogs.

If a line of dogs doesn`t have good tails for normal use of a hunting dog, stop breeding that line!

The tail is a normal part of the dogs body, and is used both while in motion and as a communication device. Would you cut of a leg if that was in fashion?

Stein Leidal
Kennel Garbu - fast & wide
www.garbu.net

[greyflyte]

Stelei
You are entitled to your opinion as we are entitled to ours, no argument there, your opinion however doesnt make me angry, I am open minded enough to understand individual choice.

Maybe when hunting is banned because PETA has pushed and pushed to ban it you will realise how banning docking is for them just the first step.

Please consider what you are actually allowing to happen by buying into their arguments.

[lizgundog]

I agree entirely Cyd, your are dead right. PETA has it's own agenda and banning tail docking was just the start, if they have their way there will be no animals owned by anyone and everyone will become vegetarian. Personally I think the management of PETA are making a living out of causing trouble world wide.
I would like to know if all those who are in favour of not docking still remove the dew claws on their Weimraners, from personel experience there's more pain in that process than by banding or docking a tail. So Stein do you still remove your puppies dew claws?
Liz - Silvahunter Weimaraners.

[tasha]

I see quite a few tail injuries not just in weimaraners but in spaniels and labs as well on the shoots I work on, the grounds are dense with a heavy mixture of mature brambles with climbing rose bushes and thorn bushes in them, doesn't stop the dogs doing their job but some of the injuries are pretty nasty Worst thing is once the injury has occured its really hard to stop it from continuing to happen on a regular basis.

Bonnie has a few scars now from barbed wire completely away from the shooting world but she does always get the odd scrape here and there and I'm always pretty careful to keep her away from the worst of the stuff and let the spaniels go in and do what they do best.

Best to be open minded.

[Alkemist]

You know I think the Germans did a great thing when they decided to dock their hunting Weimaraners - something which the breed standards all around the world until recent history reflected.

I do agree about dewclaws though - this is an awful procedure, something that I didn't like to see done at all. Now that is tantamount to cutting a limb off, but I expect that not everyone will share that view, it's just a personal one.

And yes, I dread to think what will happen to those hunting dogs (like our UK foxhounds, who lost their purpose overnight) when hunting is banned everywhere, along with shooting, fishing, coursing etc. It has already happened to some country sports in the UK, and here, if we go out with more than 2 dogs, and they chase and kill a fox - we are technically breaking the law (Tasha if thats not 100% correct, please correct me).

Mind you, as long as 'we' are all fighting each other, over what is right, and what is wrong, 'they' can get away with it unchecked.

Nina

[tasha]

the rule we've been given is that if you go out to flush a fox it has to be with a max of two dogs with a person who has a shotgun, the dogs aren't allowed to kill the fox at all. Sometimes I wish the government and the idiots that made this particular law would take a leaf out of david attenboroughs book and leave certain animal instincts to the animals. If you have a dog that will dispatch a fox your going to be pretty hard pushed to stop it doing it.

It is totally bonkers.

Something that I have found interesting is that I am translating some of the old german stuff that I got through recently and one of the letters quotes that the tail docking was originally done to make the dogs look more regal rather than for any particular health purpose. This letter was written by a prominent and well respected member of the german club but it was written decades after the dogs were first docked so can only be a matter of opinion or speculation rather than concrete fact. It is an interesting note though.

[syrinx]

Here in Oz, they started with hunting and then moved onto dogs. In most States here, hunting is, or is being outlawed. Then the RSPCA moved onto the dog world. I think what has happened world wide is that the very well organised AR groups have infiltrated RSPCA, SPCA, and the like. What absolutley boils my pot is when I hear on the local radio, someone from the RSPCA appealing for blankets or food for the dogs in the shelter. They should be spending their money on stuff like that instead of professional lobbyists, or media ads to attack the dog world. They always did such good work, and I was a member of the RSPCA . As a kid I won an award for raising the second highest amount of money for them in the State. But now I won't go and do displays at things for them. Although maybe I should. With a docked dog VBG!!!!
Wendy in Oz

[rute_paredes]

Dear all,
as I have already said in previous posts, I am not myself a hunter. I am not equipped to adequately discuss whether or not a full tail can "harm" a dog out in the field. However, as with other facets of the Weimaraner, I try my best to be informed. When we got our boy Iago, he was docked and since it was stated in all the Weim literature that it was normal procedure given the dogs history and breed "purpose", as Cyd put it, we had no issues with it. We were sure his breeders had taken every care to ensure the safety and minimize the disconfort of the procedure, we never saw it as cruel. (Iago has kept his dew claws, by the way). I have no problems when a weim breeder or a knowledgeable person advocates full tails. He/she has his reasons and experience to back them.
I do however feel that most groups championing full tails are just getting into the animal rights generalistic, soundbyte ridden, fashionable bandwaggon without having any serious knowledge of what the devil they are talking about.
I would like to see these people take on puppy mills, back-yard breeders or push for harsher laws to punish animal abuse, neglect and abandonment or simply promote animal adoption and rescue. Put their money where their mouths are and instead of running expensive add campaigns, provide food and shelter to animals in need.
Why foccus on something so specific as tail docking, which is a particular procedure that usually takes place within the milieu of breeders who ( with sad exceptions no doubt but still) are experts and lovers of that breed?! And would not knowingly harm it in any way?
Just my random thoughts on the matter.
r.

[jai]

pojnt well taken Rute.. and I agree..I only would like to know (and please tell me if I am off base, living here in Germany I have very little knowledge about these things out of my box), how many breeds are these "organisations" messing with? Only weims? What about the Dobies, the cute little daschunds who have tiny tails and the boxers? Or the ever fearful pitbulls and other such breeds who are bred to destroy basically at command?
just a thought.
jai

[syrinx]

Jai, they are messing with a lot. Here it is all the docked breeds, but they are also after the flat faced, the very, very small, the very large, the very short legged. If you look on PETA's web site, the head of it states they want all companion animals banned,
AND farm animals! So no meat, milk, eggs or pets. No leather, wool or anything else. You would think that a far-out group like this would just be laughed at, but they cover up so much with their 'We care about animals' line, that people look no further. They are out for all of us.
Wendy in Oz

[jai]

Gee Wendy.. I have never heard of any of that. I am so out of it here in Germany. I see so many animals and people Everywhere.. Dogs in department stores and restaurants, dogs in malls, dogs at all the rest areas off the autobahn. I will check out their website and get myself some more knowledge. Horrible things these people seem to be doing.
Thanks for bringing me up to speed.
Jai