Blue Weimaraner Website

[anne]

I have finally compiled some of the information I have collected on Blue Weimaraners and put them up on a website. It is far from complete, but I hope that people find it interesting. It is intended to be an informational site and also meant to be an evolving document. If there is anything of value on the subject that people can share with me I would appreciate it. In particular I would like to know more about German documentation and views as well as WCA documentation in the 50's and 60's on this topic. Unfortunately I do not have access to magazines and other material from this time.

Please visit www.blueweimaraner.com/

[aktyson]

Very well done website, Anne. I'm impressed!

Anne

[syrinx]

Great site! I have always wanted to do a site like that about the LH. Details, pics, ped data base, method of inheritance, stuff like that.

There is discussion on another forum about a blue that was shown in the States on the weekend. Was placed last in her class, but still given a ribbon. Some were outraged, some applauded.
Wendy

[anne]

Yes, I"ve been following that discussion.
It's a whole big can of worms that will never be resolved within the membership. I just wish that when the color was DQ'd that the membership was offered a vote for variety -- I don't think we'd be having these discussions today if that were the case.
Ah well, it's one of those discussions: Blue vs Gray, Show vs Field, that will always be one of those heated arguments.
The purpose of the site is merely to inform people of the facts, the history. There is a lot of myth and misinformation floating around about it.

[syrinx]

I found the pics and names of blue Champions most interesting. I am doing some ped research, and have come across the first blue import, so it was very interesting to know he was blue. I THINK he is way back in one of mine. I must look up the letter from the German Club that seemed to have swung the decision.
Wendy

[lizgundog]

I am interested to read all of your comments on the Blue Weimaraner. I believe that the late Dr. Petri had his own theory on the Blue colour in the Weimaraner and he refers to a particular dog sent to America that probably is behind the Blue Weimaraner. It is in his book 'Der Weimaraner Vorstehunde' in reference to a dog that threw puppies in 1949 with a black tinge to their ears - this dog was later exported to America. It is possible that the German stud book is your reference.
Liz Harding.

[anne]

Yes, that dog that Dr. Petri referred to was Casar von Gaiberg who was imported from Germany to the US. A very large majority of dogs today in the US, grays as well, go back to him. I understand from people that have had conversations with him, and also from what was written in his book (which I have not seen personally) that he strongly believed that Casar was a Doberman cross. Please take a look at the site, especially the article on Casar to read more.

[lizgundog]

Well done on an excellent website Anne. Yes I read it was Casar von Gaiberg in Dr. Petri's book.
If you go through the pedigrees of the earliest Weimaraners that came out of Germany to England and Australia they have casar bloodlines in them. Casar von der Finne (s.Arco v. Bruchholz & d.Alix v.d Finne) and Casar v Bolkswehr (s. Asso v Uplenglen & d. Centa v d Burg) are two behind the Strawbridge lines. We do not seem get the blue gene in Australia and in the last 30 years I have never seen a Weimaraner in Australia that I call a definite blue or black.
Liz.

[lizgundog]

Anne, Could you please list sire and dam of Casar von Gaiberg - I know his pedigree is posted in a link to your website but I regret that I cannot unzip it.
Many thanks.
Liz.

[anne]

Sire: Bodo v. Gaiberg
Dam: Int'l Ch Cilly v. Kreuzgrund (as you read on the website, she was also the dam of Aura von Gaiberg who was one of the 4 Weims that consitute the American foundation stock)

Would you like me to email you the pedigree?

[syrinx]

Ann, could you email me Tell's pedigree as well, please? My LH girl goes back to the Strawbridge dogs in only a few generations, as she has the old Australian lines. Email address would be [e-mail]

On the point of Tell being a Dobe cross, has anyone ever looked at the peds of Dobe Marked (tan point) Weis? It would be interesting to trace some of them, and just see where they go.
Thanks in advance,
Wendy

[Sylvia]

syrinx said:

Ann, could you email me Tell's pedigree as well, please? My LH girl goes back to the Strawbridge dogs in only a few generations, as she has the old Australian lines. Email address would be [e-mail]

Here is Tell's pedigree, it is in the database
www.weimaranerpedigrees.com/cgi-bin/pp_pedigree.pl?id=111319390759

[aktyson]

Regarding the Dobe marked Weims I recently ran across the German/Austrian standard from 1935. It said this about what appear to be Dobe markings (if this isn't referring to Dobe markings, please let me know as I haven't been able to determine that for sure):

. . . Neither is the reddish-yellow shade on the head or legs ,which nowadays occurs seldom, to be regarded as a fault . . .

And it had a NOTICE posted after the standard regarding longhairs:

Very occasionally there are some long-haired Weimaraners. They have a right to be listed, provided their origin can be traced back undeniably until the fourth generation. . . .

It seems that perhaps Dobe markings were less suspect as to heritage than longhairs in 1935. But, of course, the reddish-yellow, coloring could be referring to something entirely different. Anyone know anything about this?

Anne

[anne]

Wendy
I will email it to you.
The appearance of dobe marked weims precede Casar.

From my website
www.blueweimaraner.com/tell.html


Some may argue that the Doberman markings we see on some of today’s Weims on occasion came from the alleged Doberman cross-breeding that produced Cäsar, but this argument can easily be refuted. According to Denlinger, the German Standard ratified in Frankfurt in 1935 states " Silver-, deer-, or mouse gray; head and leather mostly a little lighter; white markings in small measure, mostly on the chest, are neither ugly nor faulty since also characteristic of the breed. Neither is the reddish-yellow shade on the head and legs, which nowadays occurs seldom, to be regarded as a fault; however a Weimaraner with reddish yellow coloring should not receive more than a "good" when tested for his shape. If outstanding for hunting purposes he should not be excluded from breeding. Along the middle of the back is often the dark eel-stripe.” (62). This standard was written more than 20 years before Cäsar von Gaiberg was born, and obviously the Doberman markings were occurring regularly enough to be mentioned in the standard. The Doberman markings most likely come from the Hound blood used when the breed was developed.

Elizabeth Wood contends the that Doberman cross theory is not only unsubstantiated but also “genetically unsound” because if Tell were a Doberman cross, he would carry the recessive at gene which causes the tan markings, and this would mean that “his line-bred offspring would have exhibited a much higher than average occurrence of tan-points.” She continues by telling us that this has not happened with his descendents (footnote 16). In fact, Tell produced well; many of his offspring were champions and he was a top producing sire. His get constituted breeding stock for some of the most influential kennels of today. It is difficult to believe that a mongrel would produce so well, particularly in passing on the hunting qualities for which he was so well-known. Homer Carr did not care for the blue coat color but used Cäsar for his conformation and for his “intense natural hunting instinct which were badly needed to correct or eliminate serious faults widely prevalent in our American Weimaraners,” and he was very successful at it.

[lizgundog]

Hi Anne,
An emailed pedigree would be most appreciated - my address is [e-mail]. I am the co author of the book 'Searching for Silver Grey' - now displayed on Wei Club of America booklist so pedigrees are especially interesting to me. I have tried the link to that pedigree again and it won't open for me. Many thanks Liz Harding.

[lizgundog]

Wendy - Syrinx.
I am interested in your thoughts re dobe markings on Weimaraners - however a complete study of German breeds will help you understand that the Dobe Markings in Weimaraners doesn't come from the doberman breed. The Weimaraner was used in the foundation stock to form the dobe - it is written in the dobe history, Von Dobermann lived in Apolda - the German village where he bred dogs for guarding, working and hunting. Please refer to Gary Vize letter in my book, if you have further queries you can contact my through my email address which I believe you already have. 1934 photos of the doberman reveals a dog that looks very much in body shape like the early weimaraners. Our original Weimaraners (Silvahunter) had Strawbridge as direct grandparents in their pedigrees - having seen his parents I believe that Casar von Gaiberg I believe is not related to any Australian Weimaraners. I believe Anne is on the right theory that the dobermann markings are actually from the recessive red gene carried through the original German braque - please refer to Dr. Petri's book "Der Weimaraner Vorstehunde".
Regards,
Liz Harding.

[Wetdog]

VERY good website Anne!!! It is obvious that a lot of work and care has gone into its making.
I might add that although the rust or tan counterpoint markings being described here as "Dobe" markings out of convenience are actually present in several hound and terrier breeds, just to say that Dobes are not the only possible source.

[syrinx]

Hi Liz,
The thing is, Casar von Gaiberg was quite widely used, from what I have read, and there may be 3 Weimaraners who are not flooded by American blood in their pedigree, but 3 may be overstating it. The first Weis who came to Australia were Strawbridge too, my Lara (LH) has them and not too far back either. She has the old Australian lines closer than many. So as American imports come in yearly, Casar is here, in spirit. He is back behind so many lines, Nani, Colsidex, Camelot, Top Hat, they are all here. Got to www.britfeld.com/pedigree/search put in some of the American prefix's and have a look. Or www.dogzonline.com.au go to the breed pages (you'll find the link on the top left in a little menu) start at the top and work down. Each of the dogs there have a pedigree up, only 4 generations, but you'll get the drift.
Wendy

[daniela]

I don't think I have missed any posts but what do you mean by three dogs?

[lizgundog]

Hi Wendy,
I must admit I agree with Daniela - what do you mean 3 dogs. Sorry I can't see where you are going here. Firstly we are talking about a dog that was sent to the U.S. in 1950. This dog is under some dispute as to whether he is the carrier of the 'Blue' Weimaraner gene but this cannot still be proven - refer to Anne's original notes and web page. Secondly the first Weimaraners that came to Australia at about the same time as he went to the States were not related to that dog - that is where I am coming from. The Australian Weimaraner initial lines were so tight (through line and in breeding in the first 15 years) that dogs imported from the U.S. in the 80's would need to be Blue dominant in gene to affect our breeding (see Anne's webpage - re the probabilities in breeding a blue Weimaraner). Unfortunately using the Britfeld sight as a reference is not the way to go as it has many inaccuracies in it which I can prove through research for the Australian Wei Book - please refer to the notes in 'Searching for Silver Grey' which advises that in order to be 100% accurate one has to refer only to the Stud Book, the Britfeld sight is an excellent collection for someone wanting a quick but not necessarily correct reference. Having received a copy of 'Tell's Pedigree' from Anne I definitely believe that he is not related to the initial 2 pair of Strawbridge Weimaraners imported in to Australia in 1952 - that is the point I am trying to make.
I am not trying to make any other point about dogs imported into Australia in the 80's and 90's. If you believe you have seen a blue weimaraner in Australia there are many of us would love to know who it is.
Liz.