Imported Semen?

[Leslie]

Couldn't decide if this topic should go here or in import/export, but figured people offering stud service might know about this.

How does it work to register the puppies if the semen is imported from another country? I thought about looking into that, but was worried it would be complicated registering the pups.

[Irena]

lnicole said:

How does it work to register the puppies if the semen is imported from another country? I thought about looking into that, but was worried it would be complicated registering the pups.

Hi Leslie,

If this concerns the blue female you own, I'd start from the beginning. It seems that in most European countries the breed club has to give the breeder a permission to breed their particular bitch to a particular dog. Both have to conform to the breed standard and have certain health checks done and in some countries some working ability certificates are required. If this question indeed applies to the blue female, I wouldn`t think any breed club would permit to breed her to begin with. It would be the same as allowing to breed a Dalmatian without spots, or a longhaired Rottweiler, or any other substandard dog. Further, even if such a dog is bred, from what you wrote about the French kennel club and issuing pedigrees only after the dogs have reached 12 months of age and their conformation evaluated (if I got that right), some of the puppies from such a litter could be left without any papers because they of course would not conform to the FCI standard. I know it is possible to do that through the AKC or even the British Kennel Club, but I personally don't know of any clubs on the continent that would knowingly allow for such a breeding to happen.

As to imported semen per se, I think it depends on the particular country and kennel club. For instance, it is known that the German Shepherd club of Germany does not recognize A.I. matings. I am not sure about any other clubs. There is this CLONE (?) laboratory that does A.I. matings I guess, but I really know very little about all that. A way out that someone suggested to me a while ago would perhaps be just getting the Club's permission to breed to that particular stud and not inform the club that it is going to be an A.I. mating. You could have theoretically taken your bitch to a dog abroad, and the Club would still give its permission to do that, so why not do an A.I. instead. But I have never thought of this further, so I am not sure of any pitfalls.

[daniela]

Hi

In the UK, we have to obtain permission from the Kennel Club before we embark on importing semen.

Firstly, I would suggest you contact the French Kennel Club's Information Department (if they have one) and see whether they can point you in the right direction.

They should be able to tell you whether you need to obtain permission (from the French KC) and they should also be able to provide you with a list of vets who carry out the AI procedure.

That is how it works in the UK but you may also want to check with any breed clubs there, as you may need permission from them too.

Hope this helps.

Daniela

[daniela]

...forgot to say, you may need to contact your Ministry of Agriculture to find out whether you need an import licence for the semen.

I have done all the paperwork for importing semen from US to the UK, and also went through the same process for semen from Australia to UK so I can give you a more detailed account of the procedure I followed, if that helps at all.

Daniela

[Leslie]

OK,

I know that there is a lot of anti-Blue sentiment out there, so I have to expect some of the comments posted. On hind sight from reading the posts, I got the impression some think that I'm trying to do something sneaky by asking about importing semen. No! I'm only curious on how it works after reading sections about frozen sperm and trying to learn as much as I can. I was also asking because I’ve been looking into this issue for a quality American breeder (not Blues) who asked me about how it would work to export semen to a dog in Germany.

I will have NO problems finding a quality stud for her in France. Ellie has been accepted in France. She has passed conformation, done well in shows and I've been encouraged to breed her and even offered assistance to find a quality stud by the President and other members of the Weim club. Her hips are rated Excellent and I'm sure if there are any other health tests, she will pass them with flying colors.

So, I understand where you are coming from and you have a right to your opinion, but if I decide to breed Ellie, I am in my rights to do so. She is a quality Weimaraner. There is nothing in the FCI standard against Blues.

I will always value other's perspective and information, but we'll have to agree to disagree on the Blue issue.

[marjolein]

I do have the idea that you misread the posts Leslie. I'm sure Daniela and Irena where only trying to give you the info you asked for.
But I have a question now. I'm just asking, not questioning you!!!!!!!
You said it is ok to breed with her, but the FCI-breed standard states that a coat colour, other than grey is a disqualifying fault. Is blue another shade of grey or something???

[Leslie]

Marjolein,

Don't worry, I don't bite <grin> OK, I may get a little passionate about this, but it is my passion :-)

I know the Blue is a sensitive issue and bound to stir up comments and controversy. Please don't feel you can't question and even challenge me. It can bring to light a better understanding for people to make informed opinions. The FCI says any shade of grey. Ellie is grey, just a different shade than the majority. As I've mentioned in other posts, she probably does pass because she is a light, silvery, "blue" with grey nails and grey nose. If she was really dark, almost black with black nose and nails, she probably wouldn't have been accepted.

Once, an eldery English woman approached me at a show and said she used to be a judge with KC. I didn't think to get her name, so can't back this up, but she claims that she saw Weim's this color over 30 years ago.

In the American standard, there is a clause specifically against blues. Please note though that the Blue is still recognized by the AKC. Also remember that Americans disqualified the Longhair at the same time.

I guess what gets to me sometimes is the knee-jerk reaction based on a prejudice from the American standard (?) rather than really looking at her qualities and if she conforms to the FCI standard. Quite a few experienced, qualified FCI judges have given her an excellent rating. So people are free to have thier preferences and opinions, but the facts are that she is a Weimaraner with full rights in this country.

[anne]

<<Is blue another shade of grey or something???>>

I posted about this on the other thread (Bloodlines, Pedigrees and Genetics "Standard and Color"). There ARE people that think blue is a shade of gray. Maybe I was too verbose and people didn't read my posts all the way through (sorry it's my passion too and I do tend to go on and on! :-)) but the original American standard did INCLUDE Blue in the color standard, and it was supposed to have been based on the German standard. Jack Denton Scott, an early fancier and WCA person who wrote an early book on Weims (and an anti-Blue person) claimed that it was poor translation, but apparently the confusion between blue being a shade of gray or not was a problem from a long time ago.

In the minutes (sometimes called the "testimony") of the gentleman who brought back Casar v Gaiberg to the US, he says that Casar was "mouse gray" and that so too did the German club officials also call him mouse gray. Casar was related to the dogs that some of the German club officials had and said that Casar's aunt was also mouse-gray and the same color as Casar. And also Casar came from good bloodlines.

If the French club has accepted Ellie, then it's quite clear to me that there is enough ambiguity in the FCI standard to allow a Blue. The fact that Leslie says that if she were a dark Blue Ellie may not have been accepted makes me wonder if many of the lighter Blues have "passed" for grays in the past. If you looked at Ellie's pictures, it's easy to see why she might be allowed. The thing is the genetics are the same, she just has more of the dilute influence than some of the darker Blues, just like you see more gray colored dogs and more silvery dogs, and they are all acceptable as "gray."

In the end, Leslie is not circumventing any system in place already and it seems to me that if the kennel club accepts Ellie, then there really should be no problems as far as breeding. The club has not recognzied her as "substandard" or anything but a full purebred Weimaraner. It's not Leslie's opinion, it's the club's opinion.

If this is a major problem then the FCI standard needs to be changed to specificially disqualify the Blue Weimaraner. Obviously, there IS ambiguity in the way the standard is written... which of course goes for many aspects of ANY standard. And as we all know, standards are living documents, that are subject to change.

[Irena]

Well, I had written a long post, but let me just say this. I don't know who the President of the French Weimaraner Club is and what his excuse is for not complying with the [however poorly worded] Standard. Perhaps they should drive up to Germany some time and ask the creators of the breed and of the standard to explain to them if blue Weimaraners are really allowed by the FCI standard (which the French Club claims to use too). Might be a real eye-opener.

[Irena]

lnicole said:

On hind sight from reading the posts, I got the impression some think that I'm trying to do something sneaky by asking about importing semen.

That is not what I thought, not even remotely. There is nothing sneaky about seeking imported semen to better the breed, and the club would have to approve of such a mating anyway (at least in my country).

I don't know why it sounds like I am "anti"-blues. This is furthest from the truth - I don't see how they could harm the breed PROVIDING EVERYONE KNEW what they were breeding, blues OR greys or both (and not think one was just darker than the other). The only problem I have with this is saying that the FCI standard actually allows blues. Yes, the wording is unclear and can be interpreted in many ways, but I would not be the one to dare it by saying Blues are OK under it too, and I have good reasons to think that if such a dog was shown to the board of Weimaraner Klub e.V., they would unanimously agree that this is not quite the "grey" that the standard implies. Trouble is indeed that the standard only seems to "imply" it. My guess is that the blue colour is not excluded because there has never been a problem with it in Europe because there just aren't any (many?) and no one would ever think of showing them. This is just a guess and I can't support it with facts. I also understand that what would be a "precedent" in favour of this case in the US (or a similar law system), in my mind does not signify anything other than a judge's incompetence.

I personally would choose another way to go about "legalizing" blues. Instead of pointing at the faulty standard that as if does not exclude them, I would work on accepting them legally, and a good start has already been made (showing this particular dog and proving that she conforms to the standard in all but one way). That's just my opinion though, and the way I feel about this.

[anne]

I know nothing about the French Weim Club and am not very familiar with the FCI standard except for reading the standard. One thing I want to point out is that Standards in general are usually rather open to interpretation... One of the reasons that each breeder has a different vision of what the "perfect Weimaraner" should be.

For example, I for one feel that every Weim should prove its hunting instinct to be a champion; even more extreme, to me, a Weim that can't hunt isn't really a Weim. I feel that the FCI standard, much more strongly than the American one, strongly implies that a Weimaraner should hunt. But not all other breeders interpret it this way. Many countries, including the US, do not require this nor even consider it when breeding. Many countries indeed do not even allow hunting... and yet the FCI standard spends much time describing the ideal hunting dog, "persevering in systematic search," "reliable pointing dog," "steady" etc. So for those breeding in countries where this important characteristic cannot be evaluated, and are breeding under the FCI standard... well IMO this is equally a sin of omission, just as the lack of specific exclusion of Blue, when some see Blue as a shade of Gray. I am not criticizing these breeders, of course there are difficulties when you live in a country where the government prevents dogs doing what they are supposed to do. And, I respect those that have a passion for breeding their ideal dog while taking the time to interpret the standard and work to breed that perfect dog even if their interpretation differs from mine – and they all do. I doubt anyone sees the perfect dog the same way as anyone else. Standards just are not black and white. That is the nature of standards.... interpretation differ, even within the same countries, or the same clubs. Another example would be the description, "pleasing in shape." I can't think of a more subjective description than that.

Therefore I doubt that the French Club president needs an “excuse” for his recommendations… Further, we can’t ask the creators of the breed for their interpretations either. Today’s Germans also rely on their own interpretations and also just like anyone else, I’m sure are subject to changing of times… I doubt that the dogs look exactly the same as when they were first created. Not only are standards subject to change, but dogs too change over the years, you see it in every breed.

[anne]

<<I also understand that what would be a "precedent" in favour of this case in the US (or a similar law system), in my mind does not signify anything other than a judge's incompetence.
>>

Could you clarify?

<<My guess is that the blue colour is not excluded because there has never been a problem with it in Europe>>

I agree. But the world gets smaller. I know for a fact that at least one (and I would guess more) Blue has been exported from the US to Germany. Perhaps it will be an issue that will have to be faced some time in the future.

Which would be ironic because all Blues can be traced back to a German dog.

[Irena]

anne said:

<<I also understand that what would be a "precedent" in favour of this case in the US (or a similar law system), in my mind does not signify anything other than a judge's incompetence.
>>

Could you clarify?

I'll try. As I understand it, it is common in some countries to look back at any precedents and for the judge (in court, not in the breed ring) to form his verdict based on that precedent. (E.g. in 1903 that judge said this about a similar case, so I can do the same.) I however would rely more on the standard, and would not think much of a judge that ignored it and made up his own interpretation of it.

I think we get focused on these two colours being so similar in a way, but would a judge dare to put up a German Shepherd that was otherwise perfect but was the colour of a Dalmatian, which is a DQ fault too? Would it be ok for the judge to make such a decision because HE thought the dog was quite alright otherwise?

[marjolein]

anne said:

I
For example, I for one feel that every Weim should prove its hunting instinct to be a champion; even more extreme, to me, a Weim that can't hunt isn't really a Weim. I feel that the FCI standard, much more strongly than the American one, strongly implies that a Weimaraner should hunt. But not all other breeders interpret it this way. Many countries, including the US, do not require this nor even consider it when breeding. Many countries indeed do not even allow hunting... and yet the FCI standard spends much time describing the ideal hunting dog, "persevering in systematic search," "reliable pointing dog," "steady" etc. So for those breeding in countries where this important characteristic cannot be evaluated, and are breeding under the FCI standard...

Oh, I really agree with you on this one Anne!!!! Unfortunately, you can breed every Weim to another, as long as he has some kind of obedience diploma. Stupid rule if you ask me!!!

[anne]

Irena,

So you mean that if a Blue is accepted and allowed to breed in one FCI country, then it may set precendence, and therefore can jeaporadize the standard overall? (I think that is what you are saying?)

Anne

[Irena]

anne said:

Irena,

So you mean that if a Blue is accepted and allowed to breed in one FCI country, then it may set precendence, and therefore can jeaporadize the standard overall? (I think that is what you are saying?)

Anne

Seems like I can't even spell correctly.

I'm sorry to say that I mean the opposite as far as I'm concerned - EVEN if this happened, I still wouldn't think it was alright, in fact, I'd be afraid of what was going to happen because I am used to following the rules, not making them. But all in all, I guess it could indeed happen, and maybe fanciers of the Blues in Europe need this one case to then be able to raise the question about changing the standard. But I wouldn't go ahead of the standard is what I'm saying - if the Standard does not allow it, then I can't breed it (even if some judge thought it was ok), but if I were interested, I would be working on it being accepted properly by the Standard.

[Irena]

if a Blue is accepted and allowed to breed in one FCI country

This is the bit that I can't imagine happening. The Standard is for all, and no country can suddenly decide to interpret it in their own way and accept something that is not there, but someone please correct me?

[anne]

<<would not think much of a judge that ignored it and made up his own interpretation of it>>

This was the very reason the AKC gave for finally approving the WCA's standard (after twice rejecting the Blue disqualification) when they move to disqualify the Blues. To give judges better guidance as to what is preferred for coat color. The Americans have mostly always thought that Weims should be short coated gray dogs.

That said, I personally favor qualities that are good for hunting, in other words, conformation characteristics I value have to do with movement. To me, coat color and other "fancy points" are secondary. Therefore, if a judge had the same mindset as me and gave a win to an outstanding dog regardless of its color, whose movement was excellent indicating the ability to work tirelessly in the field, well I would have more respect for that judge than one that gave a win to a lesser quality dog whose coat color was more in line with the standard. I don't expect people to agree with me on that one. I feel the same way about white too. The only difference in my eyes being that the genetics behind white is far more complicated. The AKC also commented on this aspect as far as the Blue coat color -- that it would certainly be very easy to breed for the good qualities of the Blues since you can get rid of the color in one generation being that it's a dominant trait. Not so with white or dobe markings or longhairs. (The recessive factor being the major reason why Americans never accepted longhairs.)

[anne]

<<The Standard is for all>>

And for all to change. That is probably a very American comment from me. :-)

I don't know how many times the FCI standard has been changed. The American one has been changed many times. I have no problem with standard changes as certain parts of it are discovered to be unclear, or maybe new problems need to be addressed. One of the hot topics back in the 70's was a matter of size. As the dogs grew bigger and bigger, a size disqualification was introduced.

[Leslie]

By the way, in all the "Blue" excitement, I haven't yet thanked people for the educational information they posted. :-)