Imported Semen?

[Leslie]

I really don't want to beat this subject to death, but I feel compelled to address a few comments. Irena, please don't feel I have anything against you personally or your right to comment. I think it's positive to have a spirited discussion. This is a long one!

>>That is not what I thought, not even remotely. There is nothing sneaky about seeking imported semen to better the breed, and the club would have to approve of such a mating anyway (at least in my country).<<

I apologize if I misinterpreted your comment. When the tone seemed to be criticizing breeding a blue, I suddenly thought "Oh yes, I do forget that this can be a big issue and ah ha, I wonder if people are getting the wrong impression in this context of importing semen."

And yes, I apologize that I got pretty passionate in my response. I'm sure you can understand that.

>>I don't know why it sounds like I am "anti"-blues. This is furthest from the truth I don't see how they could harm the breed PROVIDING EVERYONE KNEW what they were breeding, blues OR greys or both<<

I have to admit from your comments, it's hard for me to see how you aren't anti-blue. You are criticizing a possible blue breeding, saying a judge is incompetent for accepting her color, saying it would be like a German Shepard with Dalmation coloring. I'm not sure in what way this allows for another interpretation. Can you be specific about how you see Blues fitting in?

By the way. You have the right to be anti-blue -- if indeed that were your opinion. I'm only trying to show you that I have followed all the appropriate channels. I am "following the rules."

I also just want to be sure that you are aware that Blue is not recessive. One can not unknowingly breed a Blue. Or are you just referring to being AWARE of the color difference? I can assure you, no one is confused. They've just decided that this does fall within the standard of a "shade" of grey. America calls it Blue. As Anne has suggested, Mouse-grey quite possibly and it seems probable to me was what Europe called Blue. I've certainly had long-term judges tell me they used to see this color more, and they call it Mouse Gray. And yes, they know that she’s called Blue in America.

>>The only problem I have with this is saying that the FCI standard actually allows blues. <<

I said it did not specifically disqualify them in the way the American does. Actually, calling a color Blue or Mouse-Grey is semantics. Can you prove the wording doesn’t allow for this shade of grey? I find it interesting that without an automatic prejudice (of the American standard) a dog is judged and found to be an acceptable color.

>>I don't know who the President of the French Weimaraner Club is and what his excuse is for not complying with the [however poorly worded] Standard. .

And in another post:

>>in my mind does not signify anything other than a judge's incompetence.<<

It's not just this one judge. She has been seen by 5 separate judges who had no problem with her color. (one said it was too dark for him, but she was still given Excellent) She was also seen informally by a Belgian judge and a KC judge who also thought highly of her. Even if you personally disagree with these judgments, these are individuals who have been judging for a very long time and are well respected. They are not ALL incompetent. I think that no matter what we think of a Judge's decision, it does seem to me that they are deserving of being referred to with some respect. They are not breaking the rules. They are following the standard as it stands and as they interpret it. I think what you are saying is that you personally feel there should be a change in the standard to narrow the definition of “grey” more.

I know this is a loaded topic with passionate views. It may well be an issue that will end up being eventually addressed in the FCI standard. I just hope that people will make judgments based on actual weighing of a dog's merits, not from hearsay. I've seem some Weim's confirmed that personally I felt were built like Labs – how does that conform to the standard? I’ve been told by qualified people that they thought Ellie was one of the best looking females in France. That and considering that probably 3/4 of her offspring will be the typical grey (and will never reproduce a Blue) – I think she will have something valuable to offer by being bred. I’m sure you are aware that a number of top lines in America have a Blue in their background.

Well, that about raps it up. You have the right to your opinion about how the standard should be interpreted or if you feel there is a need for further definition, but I want to make it clear that I am not breaking any rules, nor were these judges breaking rules or incompetent. I’ve spent all morning trying to both be clear in my position but also not confrontational. I hope I’ve succeeded. Time to go to Agility class!

[greydove]

Here is my 2 cents worth on this topic, regardless or who is 'for' or 'against' a blue Weimaraner, I would NOT in my wildest dreams let any of our stud dogs be used over any blue bitch anywhere in the world.

And quite frankly I don't know anyone who would.

Australia follows the FCI standard which states as a disqualifying fault - Colour other than gray.

www.ankc.aust.com/weimaran.html

As for the USA: the AKC quotes in their standard:

Very Serious Faults--White, other than a spot on the chest. Eyes other than gray, blue-gray or light amber. Black mottled mouth. Non-docked tail. Dogs exhibiting strong fear, shyness or extreme nervousness.

Disqualifications
Deviation in height of more than one inch from standard either way.
A distinctly long coat. A distinctly blue or black coat.

Narelle

[Irena]

Leslie,

I do understand where you're coming from.

I'll try to put my thinking cap on and explain my thoughts again and hopefully I will succeed too (you definitely did ).

I personally find Blues interesting. If we don't go into any history even, I would still think it was interesting, and would like to see them accepted - say, as a variety. Like Anne said in her very American comment ;D , the Standard is for us to change, and if there ARE people that like Blues and are ready to work with this colour, why not. You probably know it already, but Longhairs compete only among themselves at shows now, and receive their own CAC's and a BOB at any show. Moreover, some countries do not allow Shorthair + Longhair matings anymore, only LH + LH. (Not going into whether this is a good or bad idea, this is not the topic.) So in my mind Blues could be a variety - I would just not go so far as to suggest to include them as another shade of grey, because not ALL people are or ever will be ready to accept them, I think. Then again, I would probably be in favour of accepting Dalmatian-coloured GSD's too, why not??? Provided they are not mixed with the "classic" colours. Did you know that while the AKC still disqualifies White German Shepherds ("A white dog must be disqualified"), the FCI has actually accepted them (since 2002?) as a separate breed and they are now White Swiss Shepherds? They are of course never bred to the GSD's anymore, but they are shown, competed and bred sucessfully by the fanciers of this breed. And they can be longhaired too, something the GSD can't be. So I really have nothing against Blues (not that my personal opinion matters anyway), and yup, I am certainly aware that they are dominant, not recessive. And if I was interested in particular lines, I don't see why I wouldn't buy a grey puppy out of a Blue parent(s), knowing that indeed it will only produce greys. My fiance and I talked some time ago about keeping a blue rescue female that he was fostering at that time, but decided not to because he had his hands full at that time. We could have eventually gotten an ILP pedigree on her and competed with her in the venues we're interested in. Didn't happen though.

I can't however imagine yet blues being mixed with grey dogs in the ring and breeding, and for buyers to have to ask "Are you sure this pup from your litter is grey and not blue?" (That is if the breeder just like the judges thought that the colour of that stud was just a little darker than usual. Of course, knowledgeable breeders would know for sure, just like they can tell LH's at birth, but others may not know.)

You are indeed following the rules, I can only agree with that. But I still can't believe that "mouse grey" is what they are indeed called in Europe. But, I REALLY wouldn't be the person to argue about this, but what I'd do if it were me, is take a ride to Germany and meet up with people from their club. After all, they are EXTREMELY experienced in the Weimaraner, and have for sure seen ALL allowed colours. Then again, if I showed under 5 judges and all told me the colour was fine, maybe I wouldn't need to have someone tell me it is a "wrong" colour. But it would be an experiment worth conducting, I think - for the breed, not so much for this particular dog or your breeding plans (which it may only interfere with). Or you could enter your Weim under a German judge somewhere in France, and see what they say. (Though an all-rounder may not be too helpful.) I still guess that in Europe there are so few blues that it has never been necessary to define them, and most judges have never seen them. But maybe, on the contrary, there have been blues all along and no one paid any attention because they are what is meant by "mouse grey". However, I am pretty sure that if the colour is anything like that of the Great Dane "blue", I would have certainly noticed the difference (I have a picture of Audry next to one and Audry looks "cocoa" colour next to it.) Then again, if I didn't know they were called "blues" in the US, I probably would have thought it was just another shade of grey. Also I'm interested in why we indeed don't see Blues at shows (at least I haven't) if they are supposed to be allowed by the FCI standard. Maybe they are just rare, but again why would they be. These are obviously just speculations, I'm just really interested in this.

Also, does anyone know where to find the German standard from which the AKC standard was translated which included blues? I would really like to see it in German.

[marjolein]

First Weimaraner standard 1894: color- silver gray.
revision 1935: color- silver-, deer- or mouse grey. They're talking about "brand" here (dobe markings), and they consider is a serious fault, unless the dog is outstanding for it's hunting purposes.
FCI standard 1976- color- silver-, deer-, or mouse grey, as well as shades thereof.
Disqualifying faults: Color other than shades of grey.
FCI standard 1990- color- silver-, deer-, or mouse grey as well as a variety of grey shades in between. Again, colors other than grey are a disqualifying fault.

[Irena]

Mar, thank you so much. (We should make this a separate thread, Leslie was only asking about importing semen, LOL.)

So there isn't anything like "blue" or something, then?

So question is what "mouse grey" looks like, then, and how it is defined. Should not be too difficult to find that out, they assign colours to all dogs as I know, and it would be enough to see a few dogs labelled "mouse grey" to understand if blues can be considered the same, "mouse grey".

[marjolein]

I think this is open for peoples own interpretations. I for one don't think mouse grey is the same as blue.

[smokeybear]

And "obedience diplomas" appear to mean different things to different people and are not "standard".

I believe that even our Kennel Club Good Citizen Test has been interpreted as an OD?

When all it is designed to do is test basic good manners and dogs of less than 4 months old can and do pass it with ease.

[marjolein]

Yes, again we agree on this one. But I think it has nothing to do with obedience, more with character. But it's still useless if you ask me. Even bad charactered dogs can be trained so they show no fear or agression.
In Holland, I think this rule will change into a character test. Not sure what that means yet, but I do think it's a good idea.

[smokeybear]

Absolutely Mar, I know of an Obedience Champion in the UK that has a ghastly temperament, but it has been trained so well it passes the temperament test incorporated into the Obedience Test!

That is why I like Schutzhund, the BH is also a character/good temperament test as well as demonstrating good control.

[syrinx]

I have yet to see a blue mouse. The interesting thing about the snip out of the standard that was quoted, it bans blue or black. That is because blue is a dilution of black, just like the 'regular' coloured Wei is a dilution of liver. So if by some scientific 'majic' you could remove the dilution gene from a regular wei, they would be the colour of a GSP, or chocolate lab (genetically speaking, chocolate is liver). Whereas, a blue wei minus the dilution gene is would be black.
If you look at the noses of rugular coloured Weis, of lighter and darker shades, you will see that their noses are basically 'dirt coloured' and differ slightly, if at all, where the noses I have seen on pics of blues, are the real give away.
It is funny that the Americans used the recessive gene arguement against the longs, isn't that basically what the dilution gene is anyway?
Wendy

[Leslie]

This response is rather tardy as I was on vacation when the thread was going full-force. I got too busy to really follow it and thought I should step back a bit as I was getting a bit too touchy ;-)

Irena,

Thank you for your post. I thought your tone was measured and thoughtful. I appreciate your perspective.

I really do apologize that I let my emotions get the better of me these past days. I usually think of myself as a more diplomatic person. I guess it's hard sometimes not to get touchy about that which we are most passionate. In retrospect, my acceptance in France has perhaps given me a sense of success that while encouraging -- I can see that the Blue/grey issue may have to be addressed further. This thread, while presenting perspectives not unknown to me, has given me pause for further thought of the road ahead.

While I am a Blue fancier, I consider myself foremost a member of the Weimaraner community. I love being involved in the clubs both in the US and in France and I love the online discussions. I'm very passionate about Weimaraners. It's my goal to be a responsible member of this community. This of course also gives me a bit of a conundrum of how to be a Blue fancier within that community. It's been my goal to create a quality example of the Blue through work and training. I actually had never intended to show her, but was urged to do so enough that I finally did.

Believe me, it would be a lot easier to get a grey dog and not have to deal with the prejudice and current disfavor. In school, I was Honor Society, an Oregon Scholar Award recipient, and on the school council. I like working within the rules and I like succeeding. I have a challenge though in that I've fallen in love with Blues. I find their color beautiful and they are pure-bred Weimaraners. While the typical grey is a dilution of brown and the blue a dilution of black, I feel the silvery qualities and variation of grey are in the same spirit. There are certainly many that don't agree with the interpretation that this grey is acceptable in the standard and I can see their perspective. There are also those, including qualified judges who seem to agree with me.

Irena, you brought up an interesting point about White German Shepards being accepted in 2002. I'll have to read up on how other variations within breeds have been accepted as separate variations. I'm not against the idea of a separate category for Grey and Blue. What to do in the meantime though? I have to carry on the best I can trying to be responsible, trying to follow the rules, and trying to have a quality Weimaraner.

Oh, I did want to address one of your fears about people not being able to tell a blue puppy from a grey puppy. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen a photo of a litter of both colors, but it’s quite obvious. Not like Longhair/shorthair where it can be very tricky even for a breeder to tell them apart. I’ve heard current stories of experienced breeders docking a litter for shorthair length and the litter turns out to have longhairs in it.

[smokeybear]

www.afrma.org/fancyrm.htm

all sorts of colours of mice

[Leslie]

syrinx said:

I have yet to see a blue mouse. .... It is funny that the Americans used the recessive gene argument against the longs, isn't that basically what the dilution gene is anyway?
Wendy

"Selfs [solid color mice] are recognized in the following colours Black; Blue; Champagne; Chocolate; Cream; Dove; Fawn; Lilac; Red; Silver and White."

If calling a Weim "mouse grey" was the same color as the typical gray, what would be the point of differentiating? Many consider the mouse-grey to be a reddish color, but as red is a fault (as I understand it), I don't know why one would use "mouse gray" to describe it as an acceptable color. That's my thought, but not everyone agrees on that. Since it is vague, it's debatable.

The Longhair is a recessive gene in that it can pop up unexpectedly in off-spring of shorthair dogs. This is why Americans disqualified the Longhair because you couldn't be sure of what a dog with a longhair in it's background would produce, and it's very difficult to differentiate as a young pup.

Blue is not recessive. There is NO question what the offspring will produce. If a Blue weim produces a Gray pup, ALL future pups from this gray pup will be gray. (Unless you bred them back to a Blue of course.) No surprises. If the Blue bitch produces gray and blue pups in the same litter, it is very clear which is which.

Americans lumped the 2 issues together and it's astonishing how many knowledgable Weim people think the Blue is recessive.

[Irena]

lnicole said:

Oh, I did want to address one of your fears about people not being able to tell a blue puppy from a grey puppy. I don't know if you've ever seen a photo of a litter of both colors, but it's quite obvious.

Nope, I mean, there would be pups of both colours and the breeder would not even be aware that both are DIFFERENT genetically - they'd think that it's just darker/different but still "ordinary" grey. I've already seen that, when a breeder (not very knowledgeable, thought LH's were a serious fault and she breeds in an FCI country ) looked at a pic of a grey and a blue and asked - "So basically one would be the darkest shade they come in, and the other one would be the lightest shade, and you can have everything in between in one litter, right?" We had to educate her that unless she happened to purposefully or unknowingly BREED her grey bitch to a blue dog, that absolutely couldn't happen.

[anne]

"The interesting thing about the snip out of the standard that was quoted, it bans blue or black. That is because blue is a dilution of black, just like the 'regular' coloured Wei is a dilution of liver. "

You are correct about the genetics, but the reason black was disqualified in addition to the blues is a matter that is not so simple. Not to open up a whole 'nother can of worms but there have been reported cases of BLACK (not Blue) puppies born to 2 gray Weims. This has been documented in a letter and picture in an old Weim Club of America magazine (from the 70's) as well as an article that appeared in (hm, can't rememeber the publication now, but a general dog magazine) written by Henrietta Jenrette (Starbuck Weimaraners). In all cases, the purported black Weims were from 2 gray parents.

This just adds another dimention to the confusion but there is a difference between black and blue, not only genetically, but the reason black was disqualified in addition to the blues. They didn't mean it to be referring to the same genetic factor.

"It is funny that the Americans used the recessive gene arguement against the longs, isn't that basically what the dilution gene is anyway?"

Yes, but all Weims carry the dilution gene so its fixed and predictable. The LH isn't and many breeders were afraid of exactly what Leslie said, that it might pop up from two SH's unexpectedly.