Stud Restrictions

[stelei]

Sorry, my latest posting was for Nadja, not Tasha.

I`ll get back to Tashas posting as soon as I have the time, but I can allready say that I have many years memberships in several national clubs under my belt, and I `m less than impressed by the way they handle serious, inheritory defects. By the way, I`m a journalist my self, and I know a thing or two about editing. What concerns me in the documentary has nothing to with editing, but are simply documented facts, and even worse, the Kennel Clubs and some breeders way of denying them.

A question to you Tasha: Is the massive, deep fronts and the huge, heavy, beefy dogs favoured by show judges in Weimaraners an advantage for our dogs in the fields? If so, how?

[stelei]

Tasha:

Yes, we (the Norwegian Club) restricts breeding to a max. of three litters or 30 puppies per dog, regardless of sex. This rule is second to the 5 % rule by the way.

[tasha]

No but then we aren't the states and we aren't trying to breed to that body shape instead we are trying to do what it states in the UK standard and breed a MODERATE dog not an exaggerated one.

I'll add your restrictions to my list hopefully it can be raised at our next committee meeting...some of us are trying very hard to gain restrictions but it is far from easy to do so.

Is it 5% of the population in the country from the kennel club if we did that here it would still be a vast number of dogs. What happens if a bitch or a dog produces 3 litters of 12 pups are the extras not registered???

As a journalist you might be interested in the article being published in the New Scientist magasine after someone else decided to use the Weimaraner as an unhealthy breed the article is written by Sally Morgan & Sally Damms.

There is a difference between breeding unhealthy stock that changes the shape of a whole breeds structure like for an example the pug through fashion and breeding a slight exaggeration. Personally I would prefer not to see the exaggeration in the first place and don't breed to that criteria or look in my own dogs. Fashion or no Fashion.

[stelei]

Hi Tasha.

I repeat my question since I regard this as a good synopsis of the BBC documentary regarding our breed, and the damage done to as a huntingdog by the show hysteria, represented by Crufts:

Is the massive, deep fronts and the huge, heavy, beefy dogs favoured by show judges in Weimaraners an advantage for our dogs in the fields? If so, how?

If a breeder in Norway exceeds the rules set by the club, this leads to no consecueces, other than a possible loss of membership.

[tasha]

so like the other countries if not a member of the club they can breed how they like???

As I show rarely and work my dogs rather than participate in a fashion parade I am not the best person to ask about crufts, my dogs have entered but only in the Game Keepers rings which are specifically for dogs proven to be worked in the field. Their condition is certainly harder, muscle better defined but beyond that there is not much difference to the show variety unlike breeds like the spaniel we do not have a split in the breed as of yet with regard to conformation.

There was a height increase in the UK weimaraner sometime ago by 1 inch in males but all mine bred from my litter are between 25-26 inches which would adher to the old standard. The line my bitch comes from does produce some dogs which are over height however these are not sought after and we are certainly not breeding for them as far as I am aware as a consequence I was very careful to make sure that i bred to a smaller male of the correct type.

[Rachel]

I am sure like humans that animals have their fair share of problems. If we breed perfect dogs, I wonder if we will have to breed perfect humans too!....In fact if I was a dog I would of been put to sleep years ago.

Do not get me wrong I am all for the welfare of animals.

In the UK their are far more puppy farmers, back yard breeders who are breeding with no thought for the breed at all. The show/working world is not the only ones shaping the breed. In the UK a lot of the breeders which are doing harm to the breed are those who are not in the show world. Their are some well known internet sites which advertise tons of Weimaraner puppies, and its very sad to see the state of how the pups are reared, or the state of the look of the dog in general.

We must accept that its not show/working people that are ruining the breed, its down to other breeders too.

Everyone who breeds is accountable! The clubs have no effect on those that are not club members. They can breed just how they like.

We need to tighten up our precious breed, we need to welcome new ideas, and we need to do any health test that becomes available. We should not stick our head in the sands and hope for the best.

If we can be educated for the better of the breed, then I say "Bring it on", educate me.

Stud dogs are just as accountable for putting puppies into the world as bitches.

[stelei]

You`re right, but this has never happened. I`m glad to say that until now, all breeders in Norway have been responsible when it comes to number of matings and offspring. Their choice of dogs to breed is another song though...

Why will you not answer my question if the show business and its results have been good for our breed as huntingdogs or not? Why not take the qonsecuences of this crazy development with all its physical AND mental defects as result?

[Rachel]

Tasha, the size of the dogs years ago I was always told were much larger than they are today. Do you think that to be true ? I mean if you go back in history what was the size of the Weimaraner ?
Rachel

[tasha]

It would be difficult to tell to be honest better asking that question to someone like Gillian Burgoin, Diana Oldershaw or Val O'Kieffe who saw the breed when it first came into the country I could only guess, the original standard had to be increased for one particular dog who apart from height met the criteria for the breed and was a popular dog in the ring but he was also if I remember correctly shot over. Unfortunately height wasn't one of the things they include in the write up for the dogs which is a pity. The original dogs were all worked but the breed really isn't suitable for the UK and the type of hunting we do so I can understand why showing and pet ownership became more popular, dogs being a valuable commodity in the UK has also done us no favours, your absolutely right about the breed being abused in majority by a vast number of pet owners and puppy farmers who make up the majority of the dogs being bred in the BRS records, there is nothing the clubs can do about those although we do try.

For working purposes you don't want a dog that is too big, it becomes pretty useless in the field especially in the UK where the terrain and the type of hunting we do does not lend itself to a large dog. Much easier to throw a cocker over a barbed wired fence than a weimaraner although I got around that by using my coat and for the dogs to jump over at that point. A large dog also restricts the use you can get out of it when it comes to cover, no point having a dog on point if you can't send it in to get the bird out for example. The larger dogs can be clumsy in their hunting so ideally you want a mid range dog not the highest height in our standard. Different on the moors height is of no consequence there but it is a good place to see if the construction of the dog is correct, height to length ratios, it should move with ease and clear the ground without getting too tired too quickly. Badly built and they tire out or have consistant injuries.

There were definitely some dogs in history that have been large but you rarely see a dog like that in the field they just aren't practical at least not here and other than deer plus the occassional boar now we don't have large species that require a mastiff type built dog.

Stelei is correct though that some of the show dogs being produced are exaggerated in the chest a flick through the American Club magasine will show you some good examples but I am not sure that this is what we are producing in the UK.

Although we don't have the reduced numbers in the UK of other countries in Europe or the focus on the dogs going to hunting homes lots of the breeders here are starting to get more involved with the working siding of things especially as showing was starting to become a very expensive hobby with the increased costs and with the docking ban coming in as well, there are some good all rounders here but the popular breeds in this country for working are labs and spaniels if you can get a place on a shoot you've done well, if your given the chance to hunt your dog how it was bred to work then they excel but its not easy to get those opportunities for any of the HPR breeds.

With regard to deer work and tracking I agree with Calla the Weimaraner here is ideal for that purpose they work well given the opportunity, Bonnie is show lines although some of the dogs in her line including her mother is worked to the gun by the Hollings and she is not a hard hunter but she does the job and thats all I need her to do during the season that means 6 days a week from dawn till dusk with an hours break for lunch covering woodland, open ground, water and a bit of moorland chucked in - definitely a good all rounder. Graf on the other hand is working lines and although some of the line have been shown successfully he is better in the field, his first test in Holland he certainly did well... English bred dog on English lines with a bit of dutch from Greynoble lines and a bit of german from von Zehnthof lines lovely dog to work with real pleasure to hunt over.

Bonnie is more your family salon practical does the job gets from A to B in one piece where as Graf is definitely your off road suped up 4x4 crossed with a ferrari.

Stelei with regard to your question about physical and mental defects... I think we have an awful long way to go until we have gotten to a point in the UK where show bred weimaraners will result in a physical and mental defect, the show dogs actually helped to calm the temperament of the breed here to make them more managable, if you ask any of the people who have been around from the year dot they will tell you that it wasn't so long ago that in the show rings it was not unusual to see a fight break out in the rings because of temperaments the improvement in that particular area has been driven by show breeders. You can't have it both ways with show breeders being tarred for their breeding practises and complain about the temperaments of the working dogs being bred that are sharper and able to complete the german tests. Your right in this day and age a dog has to have a good temperament and for the majority apart from owner/handler error we have fantastic temperaments in the breed in this country.

I think you do both types of breeder an injustice in some respects because either could go for an exaggeration and we could end up with a split breed like the spaniels and labs who have different body shapes completely for their show and working lines, as a breed both our working and show breeders have done us a service by keeping to a standard which means that we have dogs which suit both purposes without losing what it is to be a Weimaraner.