About the Blue Weimaraner

[Jaeger]

As member of the German Weimaraner Club we always recieve their Magazine (Weimaraner Nachrichten)
In the last item the German Club recieved letters from the AKC to accept the blue Weimaraner and to register their pedigree at the JGHV.
The club won't do it and says they are cross-breeds and all the judges are asked all these dogs, even if they have pedigrees from the AKC not to allow on Breedshows and JGHV-tests.

[Sylvia]

Funny. won't you think? That they use as an argument that they are "crossbred"
A better argument would be that it is not the color allowed by the Breed Standard. but "crossbred"??
They are just as crossbred as every other Weimaraner in the world.

[tasha]

god I hope the german club don't do it or ours will use it as an excuse not to remove them here. Five years of campaigning down the toilet.

Can you post a copy of the letter please??? I haven't had my magasine for ages

[cummel]

Der Vorstand informiert
Informationen des Zuchtwartes
Liebe Mitglieder,
aus gegebenen Anlass möchte ich hiermit über Mischlingshunde informieren.
Von Seiten des AKC (AMERICAN KENNEL CLUB) kommen Anfragen an den JGHV, blaue Hunde mit AKC-Papieren die phänotypisch einem Weimaraner ähneln als "blaue Weimaraner" anzuerkennen und diese auch beim JGHV registrieren zu lassen. In Abstimmung zwischen dem Weimaraner Klub e.V. und dem Stammbuchführer des JGHV, Herrn Wischmeyer, wird dieses nicht erfolgen, da es sich hier um Mischlingshunde handelt und nicht um Weimaraner.
Der Weimaraner ist im FCI-Standard Nr. 99/13.02.2002/D als solcher eindeutig beschrieben.
Für alle Formwert,-Körrichter und LG-Zuchtberater weise ich hiermit ausdrücklich darauf hin, solche Hunde - trotzt AKC- Papiere - nicht auf Zuchtschauen als Weimaraner anzuerkennen und auch auf keiner JGHV-Prüfung zuzulassen.
Heiner Giesemann; Zuchtwart

[tasha]

definitely to the point, good. Thanks for posting it.

[weimaranermama]

That's very clear.

[weima]

Jan 22, 2009 22:23:17 GMT 1 @cummel said:

Der Vorstand informiert
Informationen des Zuchtwartes
Liebe Mitglieder,
aus gegebenen Anlass möchte ich hiermit über Mischlingshunde informieren.
Von Seiten des AKC (AMERICAN KENNEL CLUB) kommen Anfragen an den JGHV, blaue Hunde mit AKC-Papieren die phänotypisch einem Weimaraner ähneln als "blaue Weimaraner" anzuerkennen und diese auch beim JGHV registrieren zu lassen. In Abstimmung zwischen dem Weimaraner Klub e.V. und dem Stammbuchführer des JGHV, Herrn Wischmeyer, wird dieses nicht erfolgen, da es sich hier um Mischlingshunde handelt und nicht um Weimaraner.
Der Weimaraner ist im FCI-Standard Nr. 99/13.02.2002/D als solcher eindeutig beschrieben.
Für alle Formwert,-Körrichter und LG-Zuchtberater weise ich hiermit ausdrücklich darauf hin, solche Hunde - trotzt AKC- Papiere - nicht auf Zuchtschauen als Weimaraner anzuerkennen und auch auf keiner JGHV-Prüfung zuzulassen.
Heiner Giesemann; Zuchtwart

Translation please

[anne]

Jan 22, 2009 20:53:26 GMT 1 Sylvia said:

Funny. won't you think? That they use as an argument that they are "crossbred"
A better argument would be that it is not the color allowed by the Breed Standard. but "crossbred"??
They are just as crossbred as every other Weimaraner in the world.

I can understand the breed standard argument, but the crossbred argument doesn't make sense to me either since most all our Weims go back to the alleged crossbred dog.

In any case, I wonder if someone could do me a favor and send me a scanned copy of this letter? I'd like to add it to the blueweimaraner.com site.

Thanks!

[cummel]

Jan 23, 2009 17:18:39 GMT 1 weima said:

Translation please

Nadja or Tasha, could you help? I am not that familiar with all the special terms.

[chiendog]

In a nutshell the letter spells out the German Weim club's stance on the question of Blue Weimaraners. It is similar to the stance they took in the 1970's when the Slovak Hunters Union asked them to recognize the so-called Wirehaired Weimaraner. The Klub and the JGHV did not believe that the dogs in question were Weimaraners, rather they saw them as cross bred mongrels. This is their stance on the Blue Weimaraner now. In their eyes, they are no more Weimaraners than a Large Munsterlander is a Deutsch Langhaar. The chances of actually getting the Klub change their mind and accept the Blue as a Weimaraner are between zero and none.

In my view, supporters of the Blue should focus their energies on establishing a new breed of excellent hunting dogs like the Slovaks did with their grey wirehaired dogs that are now called Slovenski Stavac (Slovakian Rough-Haired Pointers).

But there again, I see the chance of that happening to be somewhere between zero and none as well.

I have no idea how this will all be resolved. But I wish the very few supporters of the blue who are committed to breeding good hunting dogs all the best. It would be fantastic if they could actually come up with something worthy of hunters' interest.

[tasha]

would certainly be better if they were a unique breed it the hands of enthusiasts rather than what they are now which is in effect a 'rarity' factor that alot of disreputable people are taking advantage of to make money. Thats a sad outcome for any dog.

[Leslie]

Jan 25, 2009 20:51:00 GMT 1 chiendog said:

But there again, I see the chance of that happening to be somewhere between zero and none as well.

I have no idea how this will all be resolved. But I wish the very few supporters of the blue who are committed to breeding good hunting dogs all the best. It would be fantastic if they could actually come up with something worthy of hunters' interest.

Warning. Rant coming up that may not be directly addressing those on this thread or even this thread specifically, but it's a topic that I've been thinking a lot about this week, so here goes.

There are those of us who are trying to be serious with what we are doing with the Blue Weimaraner. We spend a great deal of time towards this effort that often feels like an insurmountable uphill battle. Believe me, my life would be easier if I just said to heck with it and stuck with grays. To those who say we are doing this for rarity or money, we're sure not very smart about it! I have spent thousands upon thousands of dollars on my dogs and bred 1 litter in spite of a long waiting list. (I'm not talking about the puppymill breeders)

As far as creating some Blues who are worthy of a hunter's interest, I'd say we are doing that. We have some fantastic young dogs right now, but it is still a long road to get the experience and means to get them to their potential. There aren't any serious field trialers out there looking to take on a Blue, so it is mostly right now people who are trying to learn.

I know one of my pups, Bowie, Christophe said in the right hands he would be a Field champion. He said he sees Vini in him, and you know he doesn't pass out compliments without merit, but his owners although they are hunters and have done the TAN, they aren't interested in Trials or putting him with a pro. I think you would find that my Bella is at least a Weim worthy of consideration. She has her TAN now and a BICP II. Not big big bragging rights yet, but our training keeps getting interrupted by moving to different continents. It's more a reflection on me than her.

We are seriously considering the path of creating a new breed, but to get a new breed is not going to be easy and none of us is independently wealthy. It's a path that will take many years and we will need your help.

I personally feel that certain people (not talking about you, Craig) rather than spending their efforts in a crusade against the Blues should see that something should be done. I get that there are many who feel strongly about the beige gray color of the Weim being the only acceptable variation of gray. I'm with you if you want to criticize those who are buying crappy blues, bringing them to Europe to breed and then selling them for outrageous prices. However, it's clear that Blue Weimaraners are not going to go away. The only way to stop those unethical breeders is to have some kind of official standing for Blues - especially in Europe. Who is going to buy a Blue weim from someone for 2000 euros who has no health checks, no titles, no contracts when you can buy a Blue Weim for a reasonable price that has health checks, hip x-rays, parents have titles and you have a contract?

People, the Blue Weimaraner variation exists. It is here to stay. What are we going to do about it? Arguing if it should exist makes about as much sense as arguing wether Christopher Columbus should sail to America. That ship sailed. History has changed. There's no point arguing over wether Casar should have been allowed or even wether he was pure. It's done. Yes, it's true that the German Club do not accept the Blue, that they have not historically accepted Blues. You win points on the chalk board for that argument. But is that really the only part of the argument that we should be considering? What about REALITY that intentional or not, the Blue Weimaraner developed into a variation in America and then was abandoned to it's own fate?

I think the best would be if we could be accepted as a variation because then we would all benefit from an extended gene pool and Blues would come under already established official infrastructure. I think it would be better for the Weim clubs to have Blues under their wings rather than in the hands of renegade profit mongers. I think the Weimaraner community should have a responsibility for their orphan child.

That said, I'm not holding my breath that people will be able to overcome the almost viscous prejudice towards the Blues. While I understand the strong identity people have and loyalty to a standard, I think it's too bad that it blinds us to what reality has presented us with and what should be done.

[chiendog]

Excellent post Leslie.

My crystal ball is a bit hazy about what will ultimately happen with the Blue. But one thing is clear: the current situation needs to change. On the one hand we have supporters of the Blues. They come in two varieties: a very small minority that is making huge sacrifices and showing incredible determination trying to produce dogs that can hunt as well as any HPR, and a huge majority of others that simply breed blue dogs with little to no regard for field ability (in case you didn't connect the dots, the identical situation exists with grey weims).

On the other hand you have opponents of the Blue. They range from mildly indifferent spectators to wild-eyed exorcists with a mob of torch carrying locals looking for a (blue) witch to burn.

Historically, we can look to similar situations and see if there are lessons to learn and perhaps a strategy to follow. The Large Munsterlander and Deutsch Langhaar are for all intents and purposes the same breed, separated by colour. One is black and white the other brown and white. They were separated about a hundred years ago. Very occasionally they have been bred together under special circumstances, but officially they are two different breeds with their own club, standard etc. etc. Both are still bred for the most part by and for hunters. Both have fairly active and supportive clubs.

The Picardy and Blue Picardy are also separated by colour. They are very, very similar in terms of performance (blues may be faster and wider running, they've had a touch more setter crossed in).

I also mentioned the Slovak Pointer. It is basically a Weim x Drahthaar x Fousek mix and tried to be recognized as a wirehaired Weim. When that did not work, they formed their own club and wrote a standard. The rest is history. They are good dogs.

The GSP, Drahthaar and Pudelpointer all allow a black coat. But they limit the percentage of black in the breed due to the dominant nature of the colour. They fear that without controls, black would ultimately be the most common colour and difficult to reduce. The Weim could conceivably do this. Accept the blues but limit the percentage in the overall population. However, outside of Germany, the Weim world marches to the beat of a thousand different drummers. The breed is completely out of control other than perhaps sort of following the changing fashions of the show ring. And we've all seen where that has taken it.

All of the above considerations lead me to believe that perhaps the best option for the blue would be complete independence as a unique breed. Start from zero. Form a strong, united club with strict rules for testing and breeding. Use only the best, proven dogs you can find and reject the rest. There will always be hucksters in every breed. Leave them to their own devises and move forward with hunting dogs. Heck, I would even open the stud book and infuse GSP or other HPR blood into it at the beginning to kick the level of performance up a few notches. If you can get some really top knotch dogs in the breed and they are able to kick ass in trials and tests, then I believe others will take notice and get on board. Until then, I fear Blue supporters will spend most of their time trying to avoid torch-carrying mobs bent on burning them at the stake.

That's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[Leslie]

Nice post, Craig.

Made me grin (wild eyed exorcists )

Ultimately, I think you are right. It's the same conclusion I've come to a while back. I think it could be really exciting to start from zero and make some really good dogs. It's a huge task. To be honest, I don't have a crystal ball either about what will ultimately happen. I just feel compelled to give it what I can.

To do this, we would need to keep the stud book open for awhile to get enough gene pool of really good dogs. We would need help. It's hard enough to do this without having your hands tied behind your back. We would need the Weimaraner community to understand that we are not the enemy.

Perhaps I'm a dreamer, but wouldn't it be great to work together to come up with a win-win solution?

[anne]

Thanks Leslie and Craig for your well written posts.

I agree, infighting is doing no one any good. Whether right or wrong, the Blues are here, and it is no longer a "problem" of just the US. Yes, I understand the resistance to this variety of Weimaraner. Yes, I understand that there is a breed standard and the respect people have for it. However history has shown that here in the US, abandoning the Blue stepchild did not solve anything, it probably created more problems due to poor breeding. We need to look at the future, not at the past. Whether that means new breed or not is a different question, but for now, I would hope that those in the Weimaraner community can see the larger problem here; the Blue Weim is not going to go away. Would it not be better to have well bred ones than leaving them to the hands of those who have no interest in anything other than a buck?

Personally, I would like to see the Blue Weim bred as a HPR under a performance registry. There is a chance to really develop a great variety/breed with performance viewed first over show ring wins. I think there is a reason that some of the "rare" breeds in the US have no interest in AKC status and sell to hunters only and test for performance.

[tasha]

in all honesty leslie would it really be that much to create a breed out of the blue like to slovaks have done?? The argument of the blues is never going to be a simple resolution at least if you have your own breed with your own breed standard you have a chance for enthusiasts to step up. You asked for a resolution rather than a witch hunt well this is it:

Create a new breed. It resolves all of your issues in one foul swoop, ok you would not be called a Weimaraner but is that really so bad if the breed gets a chance??? A new breed would be supported in the UK by the Weimaraner Clubs so you would have SUPPORT of recognised established bodies which will at least be a step in the right direction.

This is the criteria you would need to fulfil to do this in the UK with the KC:
**************************************************************************
Imported Breed Register Policy
31-Aug-06

1. Applications for recognition of breeds

The Committee will consider an application for recognition of a breed once there are specimens of it resident in the UK and the dog(s) are imported from a country either having a Kennel Club with which there is a reciprocal agreement or which has full membership of the F.C.I. or where there is a Breed Club maintaining a Stud Book and acceptable to the Kennel Club. Application for recognition and subsequent registration should be made in the first instance to the Breed Standards and Stud Book Sub-Committee. In general, an application should consist of:

Names & addresses of UK owners/importers
Total number of dogs of the breed in the UK
Copies of pedigrees of UK dogs – at least 3 generations
Recognition status in the country of origin
Details of registration body in country of origin
Breed Registration statistics in country of origin and other countries
Show entry statistics in country of origin and at international level
Details of any inherited conditions prevalent in the breed
If the breed has been crossbred, when the registry closed
Brief history of the breed & photographs
Breed Standard from country of origin & date of first internationally recognised standard
For Working Breeds – details of activities.
[Please note that it is the individual responsibility of those applying for breed recognition to ensure due compliance with all statutory and regulatory requirements, including requisite licences, permissions and consents as are laid down by the general law, with regard to the keeping, breeding and selling of any particular breed. Recognition of the breed by the Kennel Club will not denote that any of the above has been satisfied or complied with.]

Recognition of a breed allows registration on the Imported Breeds Register, although the breed would not be eligible for exhibition until such time as an Interim Breed Standard is published. This is not considered at the same time as recognition, as it is the Kennel Club’s policy to allow the breed to develop slowly before show participation is permitted. Importers of new breeds are encouraged to form a provisional breed club, registration of which can be applied for once a certain nucleus of the breed has been established in the UK.

2. Eligibility for competition

Immediately the dog is accepted on the Imported Breed Register it can be entered and compete in Kennel Club Working Trials, Obedience, Agility and Flyball competitions. These dogs are also permitted to make ‘not for competition’ entries at shows.

Entry and competition at other Kennel Club licensed events for dogs on the Imported Breed Register is limited to Imported Breed Register classes, matches and exemption dog shows, and then only after an Interim Breed Standard has been approved by the Committee and PUBLISHED in the Kennel Gazette. Winners of Imported Breed Register classes are not eligible for group or best in show competition.

Immediately a breed is accepted on the Imported Breed Register, a dog of that breed can be entered and compete in Kennel Club Gundog Working Tests. Competition in Field Trials is subject to General Committee approval.

3. Production of an interim breed standard

When there are at least ten dogs of the breed on the Imported Breed Register an application for the production of an Interim Breed Standard may be submitted for consideration by the Committee. Such application should include:

A brief history of the dogs imported and registered.
The size of the gene pool in the country.
Any proposed breeding plan for the breed.
4. Breed Club registration

Supporters of a new imported breed will be encouraged to register a breed club which will be designated as a PROVISIONAL breed club. Only one per breed will be allowed and the club will only become fully registered if the breed is transferred from the Imported Breed Register to the Breed Register. Once a provisional breed club has been registered it may schedule one match competition per year but only as an internal club match or with another registered provisional breed club. The breeds eligible to compete would be only those breeds included within the title of the club(s) involved.

5. Transfer of a breed from the Imported Breed Register to the Breed Register

A breed will remain on the Imported Breed Register until it is considered sufficiently well established to move to the Breed Register. An application for transfer to the Breed Register would include:

A brief history of the breed following its imported registration including an account of the number of dogs shown in Imported Register classes.
The size of the gene pool and the available breeding lines in this country.
Kennel Club Regulation B3 defines the Imported Breed Register as follows:

The Imported Breed Register

a. The General Committee may accept for entry in the Imported Breed Register an imported dog of a previously unrecognised breed if the dog is imported from a country either having a Kennel Club with which there is a reciprocal agreement or which has full membership of the FCI or where there is a Breed Club maintaining a Stud Book and acceptable to The Kennel Club.

b. A breed given Imported Breed Register status may be transferred to the Breed Register at a later date at the discretion of the General Committee. Applications to transfer a breed from the Imported Breed Register to the Breed Register should be made to the General Committee by the appropriate Breed Club in accordance with the guidelines most recently published.

c. Foreign breeds, previously eligible for entry on the Breed Register will be transferred to the Imported Breed Register in accordance with Regulation B1b where there has been no registration activity for 10 years.

d. Breeds on the Imported Breed Register will be de-classified if there has been no registration activity within the breed over a ten year period.

NOTE:

It must be emphasised that only when a breed has been transferred to the Breed Register may dogs in the breed be entered in breed classes at shows.

If ten years elapse without any new registration on the Imported Breed Register the breed will be deleted from this register.




Recognition of new breeds
31-Aug-06

The Kennel Club General Committee will consider an application for recognition of a breed once there are specimens of it resident in the UK. In general, an application should consist of:

1)Names & addresses of UK owners/importers - costs nothing
2)Total number of dogs of the breed in the UK - costs nothing
3)Copies of pedigrees of UK dogs – at least 3 generations = costs nothing
4)Recognition status in the country of origin - you could use the US as the country of origin
5)Details of Registration body in country of origin - AKC??
6)Breed Registration statistics in country of origin and other countries - bit of research
7)Show entry statistics in country of origin and at international level ***
8)Details of any inherited conditions prevalent in the breed - easy enough to find
9)If the breed has been crossbred, when the registry closed - currently open registry
10)Brief history of the breed & photographs - see blue website history is well documented
11) Breed Standard from country of origin and date of first internationally recognised standard**
12) For Working Breeds – details of activities.

Recognition of a breed allows registration on the Imported Breeds Register, although the breed would not be eligible for exhibition until such time as an Interim Breed Standard is published. This is not considered at the same time as recognition, as it is the Kennel Club’s policy to allow the breed to develop slowly before show participation is permitted.

Breed recognition is at the discretion of the Kennel Club General Committee. The policy on the recognition of new breeds is currently under review and therefore additional information may be requested and further criteria may be introduced.
**************************************************************************

The majority of this costs nothing other than a bit of research and a little hard work at getting enough enthusiasts together. The history of the Blue is well documented in the states so you could use this as the country of origin rather than Germany because although Casar was a german dog techinically he was first bred in the states so the first blue puppies technically were american they were also shown in the breed rings. They are recognised by the AKC although not as a seperate breed. The AKC has a reciprocal agreement with the UK KC which is why they have been able to register the blues so far in the UK.

To find the number of blues imported to the UK, well I can provide you with that as there really aren't that many and litters are easy to trace which are grey and which are blue is not so simple but it could be done with a bit of research.

Creation of a breed standard.. they are all undergoing changes at the moment but you could base it on the Weimaraner standard with an adjustment for ears and colour etc now would be an ideal time to do it too.

Club Code of Conduct is again being redone at the moment by the kennel club.

This is the application form link:
www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1494/newbreedappform.pdf

Above you have a very simple, low cost way to have the breed recognised so that you have them in the hands of enthusiasts and not in the hands of good for nothing puppy farmers without upsetting ALL the weimaraner clubs and their members in the UK. This is a simple resolution and one that could be quickly be put into place.

The germans are not going to change their stance on the matter of the blues so maybe now after all this time and all the arguments and disagreements this has caused its time to cut your losses and take the wins that are available to you.

[Leslie]

Jan 26, 2009 18:17:53 GMT 1 anne said:

Personally, I would like to see the Blue Weim bred as a HPR under a performance registry. There is a chance to really develop a great variety/breed with performance viewed first over show ring wins. I think there is a reason that some of the "rare" breeds in the US have no interest in AKC status and sell to hunters only and test for performance.

Nice, Anne. Yes. I would agree to the above.

[Leslie]

Jan 26, 2009 18:22:31 GMT 1 tasha said:

in all honesty leslie would it really be that much to create a breed out of the blue like to slovaks have done?? The argument of the blues is never going to be a simple resolution at least if you have your own breed with your own breed standard you have a chance for enthusiasts to step up.

Thank you for that post and the information, Tasha,

I think on the one hand, maybe it's not as hard as we may think, on the other hand it's certainly harder than one may think! There are quite a few issues to figure out.

One of the problems is that even though there are a handful of breeders very serious about Blues and doing something, it's not always easy to agree HOW that should come about. AKC, NAHVDA, Other? And some just have a real hard time emotionally coming to the decision to separate from our beloved Weim identity. (I agree that I'd rather see the Blues survive even if we aren't Weim's anymore.)

We also have to have enough breeders to have a diversified gene pool. We're very, very careful about who we consider. We would probably each need to have more dogs ourselves and most of us aren't quite ready to take on more dogs than we have. At least right now.

For several generations, we will also produce gray weims. (even breeding blue to blue, it will take time to breed out the brown allele) What do we do with them? It will be pretty easy in America to double register the grays with AKC, but what about in Europe? I need to figure out how this works
under the FCI.

There is also the logistics that most of us also work for a living and train our dogs. Creating the plans, paperwork, running the registries will be very time-consuming. When we were discussing the Blue Weim Club, I was spending hours a day writing and corresponding. I just couldn't keep that up.

In the beginning, we need access to really good grays for breeding. It's the only way we will improve the decline in quality that has resulted from 30 years as a DQ. We would need the Weim community to understand this and support us. There are people who privately would be willing to help us, but fear recrimination from the community. Naturally, I think before any of this happened, we would need to prove our commitment and goals with a well-thought out plan showing registry, standard, ethics, breeding plans, etc. So, yes. We will need support, not a witch hunt.

[tasha]

The slovaks have an open registery here which means that dogs from the three originating breeds can still be used it to help build a proper diverse population. It shows on their pedigree which breed they are so long as they are kennel club registered be it here or an import, once they go on from the import register they would then I assume (and you would need to check) need to close the register but the breed can be on the import register for several years before becoming a fully accepted breed. This is done to help breeds to establish.

There are more than 10 dogs in the UK some are imports and thats all you need to make a start. I don't know what the regulations are for FCI membership but maybe making a start in the UK or the US would give you a chance at least of the breed being recognised and put back into the right hands??

I can understand the emotional attachment but if the Germans won't move on this matter and they have made themselves very clear for a very long time that their opinion that it is a cross breed even if they are just basing it on the Casar and not on the subsequent progression is final then it leaves you in a no win situation and at some point you have to do what is best for the breed not what is best for someones personal emotional status it shouldn't be about people it should be about the dogs.

I am sure that if a new breed was created then some of the better breeders here might be interested in the Blue especially if you could get them out there and competed with which is how the slovaks started off (working tests) but as it stands at the moment it would be complete suicide for any of them with a good reputation. They would lose their club status for starters and you can't ask that of good breeders because in effect you are asking them to breed against the standard which is a breach of the codes of conduct for membership.

If you can't use the specific dogs straight away you can source offspring or siblings to at least make a start till things are more acceptable. The longer you leave it though without resolution the longer in countries like the UK that the disreputable breeders will have hold of them and any chance at restricting ownership will have gone out the window

[Leslie]

Tasha,

Thanks for the information. I think your response is reasonable and is appreciated. I hope these talks can generate intelligent dialogue for solving this problem and addressing everyone's concerns. I appreciate it when we can all talk rationally and civilized rather than slinging around easy punches at each other. :-)