About the Blue Weimaraner

[chiendog]

I'm elbow deep in three different chapter rough-drafts right now (in three different languages... ) so I will just add a few comments/suggestions

Tasha wrote

The slovaks have an open registery here which means that dogs from the three originating breeds can still be used it to help build a proper diverse population.

From what Michal Urban and other officials with the Slovak club in Slovakia have told me, the stud book is only open in parent country of the breed (Slovakia). The FCI will only allow members of the club, with the permission of the breeding committee to use Weims, Drahthaars or Fouseks to blend into existing lines in Slovakia.

I think it could be really exciting to start from zero and make some really good dogs. It's a huge task. To be honest, I don't have a crystal ball either about what will ultimately happen. I just feel compelled to give it what I can.

It is a huge undertaking. But it has been done before (more or less). There are a number or precidents that can be used as a sort of "how to" guide.

1. The Slovak Pointer. A breed created by blending Weims, Fouseks and Drahthaars (mainly, there are other breeds in the mix) Time to sort out: about 30 years. Current situation: still a work in progress, but doing fairly well.

2. Wirehaired Vizsla. Another blended breed (Vizslas, Drahthaars, Irish Setters?)
Time to sort out: about 30 years. Current situation: doing well in many parts of the world. (the Smooth Vizsla can also be considered to be resurrected. It had almost gone extinct and was recreated almost from zero in the 1930's)

3. Braque du Bourbonnais. Basically re-created from scratch. The breed was for all intents and purposes extinct. Due to the work of mainly one man (Michel Compte), it was revived/recreated from Braque Francais/Pointer. Time to sort out: about 20 years. Current situation: Club has hit a rough patch but there are still lots of great dogs out there, more and more in the US.

4. Braque de l'Ariege, Pachon Navarro, Perdiguero de Burgos. All in the process of resurection/revitalization with varying degrees of success. Time to sort out: about 20 years.

There are other examples. I can provide lots of info it need be, but the bottom line is that it can be done. Estimated time to sort out: about 25 years.

To do this, we would need to keep the stud book open for awhile to get enough gene pool of really good dogs.

For several generations, we will also produce gray weims. (even breeding blue to blue, it will take time to breed out the brown allele) What do we do with them?

I may hold a somewhat radical view on this but as long as you are taking the bull by the horns as it were, why not take a more modern view on the issues of studbooks and colour etc. The Drahthaar people had huge success following the motto of "Use what you will but let success be your guide". In otherwords, they kept an open mind and stud book to a variety of crosses. What they wanted were results in the field. Today they dominate the entire V-dog world in Germany.

So keep the stud book open with some strict controls for record keeping, testing based on performance and an overall look. But allow both Blue and Grey as colours. Why paint yourself into a corner. Heck, you could accept any colour, but "prefer" Blue and Grey. The most successful breeds of hunting dogs are the ones that chose long ago to not handcuff themselves to one colour only. They allow for some variation, some wiggle room in terms of colour. The ideal Slovak colour is grey but they will accept roan. The GSP/Drahthaar prefer brown or brown roan but allow some black.

Of course, you would have to find another name instead of Blue Weimaraner, but even there, you could help the breed by chosing a name that appeals to hunters more than Yuppies in Volvos. Anything from "American Hunting Dog" to "Run Fast Kill Hound"

Just some random thoughts.

[tasha]

This is the Slovaks website in the UK it might be worth a look as this is still a developing breed here. www.slovakianroughhairedpointerclub.org.uk/index.htm

It might interest you to know that the breed is being introduced and carefully managed by established Weimaraner owner/breeders if you look at the committee you will see the WCGB president Margaret Holmes is also President for Slovaks and the majority of the rest are also very well established within the breed. Far from not supporting a Weimaraner cross breed these breeders are supporting it and trying to make sure it is a good working dog in the right hands.

I'm a big fan of the Slovak myself having seen and trained alongside some of the first dogs that came into the country and the first uk offspring, lovely dogs and certainly one I would be tempted to own in the future. I'm also historically an owner of blue danes so the colour itself is not the issue its the politics that is being dragged around with it and I am sure others feel the same way.

This is what you want the Blue to have as an opportunity not the current argument that is just being dragged around the world and causing nothing but harm to the dogs themselves.

[chiendog]

Thanks for the link. Here is another: workingslovakianroughhairedpointerclub.com/

It is for a different club focused on working Slovaks. I don't know how active it is but I do know that it was established in an effort to prevent the breed going down the same road the Weim has taken in the UK (and elsewhere).

As for Weim breeders supporting for a New Blue Breed, it would surely be positive if the main focus was on working. The very last thing a new breed needs is to take a trip down the pet/show road. So if there was stiff resistance to the breed from the main body of Weim breeders (ie: show/pet), that would actually be a good thing. A nod and a wink from the field folks, and the use of some of their best stock would be even better!

[tasha]

sadly some of the breed are already in the hands of the wrong people in the working community, I met a lovely dog at the beginning of the year with of all things my builder, the dog is worked but I was absolutely horrified at their breeding aspirations which was basically puppy farmer thoughts of buy a bitch in breed up a few litters sell them to whoever wanted one and then dump the bitch. The excuse for their poor attitude was its a new breed so prime market... I really hope he has his dog neutered.

[Steve Graham]

The item from Giesemann shows how stupid much of the discussion has become.

If blues are a mixture, then every other Weimaraner with a blue in its background is a mixture as well. And, according to Sylvia Voorn's database, this is just about every Weimaraner in North America and Germany as well as elsewhere.

How he can suggest that in a single mixed litter of blues and grays from the same parents that only the blue pups are crossbred is beyond me.

I would like to think that we have escaped the superstition and mysticism of the past, but I guess not.

I don't know why it's so difficult to simply say that "we don't think this color should be part of the breed" and be done with it instead of engaging in these nonsensical excursions into the occult.

[Steve Graham]

If somebody wants to establish a blue Weimaraner as a separate breed, what would one do with gray Weimaraners that would result if you breed two heterozygotic blues? (theoretically 25 percent)

[chiendog]

Jan 29, 2009 14:59:10 GMT 1 Steve Graham said:

If somebody wants to establish a blue Weimaraner as a separate breed, what would one do with gray Weimaraners that would result if you breed two heterozygotic blues? (theoretically 25 percent)

If it were up to me, I would allow grey and blue as colours in the standard....and liver and black since they would pop up from time to time due to the infusion of Kurzhaar blood

[tasha]

they'd also pop up thanks to some black labs...

[chiendog]

I would nix the Lab's. No need for pork-barrel chests and stubby legs. I'd vote for some Kurzhaar/GSP and maybe a dash of Setter for the LH Blues.

[Leslie]

Jan 27, 2009 14:45:17 GMT 1 chiendog said:

So keep the stud book open with some strict controls for record keeping, testing based on performance and an overall look. But allow both Blue and Grey as colours. Why paint yourself into a corner. Heck, you could accept any colour

I actually considered that and like it, but also wondered if we'd piss off the Weim's if we kept Gray in.

Of course, you would have to find another name instead of Blue Weimaraner, but even there, you could help the breed by chosing a name that appeals to hunters more than Yuppies in Volvos. Anything from "American Hunting Dog

Funny you should mention that. We're having a discussion right now about what the name might be. American Hunter came up.

And yeah, I figured it would be a 20–30 year journey.

[Leslie]

Jan 29, 2009 14:54:23 GMT 1 Steve Graham said:

I don't know why it's so difficult to simply say that "we don't think this color should be part of the breed" and be done with it instead of engaging in these nonsensical excursions into the occult.

Amen to that, Steve.

[anne]

If it's going to be done, let's do it right.... This book is a good study on how to do it.

Griffon: Gun Dog Supreme
The History and the Story of How to Improve a Breed
by Joan Bailey

[Leslie]

Jan 29, 2009 20:22:14 GMT 1 anne said:

If it's going to be done, let's do it right

I agree. I don't want to just repackage what we have with a different name.

[tasha]

you could of course always have your own breed standard to include the grey and blue colours.... now that would put the cat amongst the pigeons but would also resolve your issue of greys cropping up in litters. You would need to make sure though that both sire and dam were blue in the first place to maintain a proper record.

I'm not so sure about a blue longhair but if you have your own breed and include it to start off with then I suppose its more than possible with a long term breed program and strict guidelines. All the breeds started off somewhere and you don't get a new breed overnight even with the history of the blue as it stands at the moment.

Would be a real opportunity to put all the nonsense to bed once and for all.

[Steve Graham]

Jan 29, 2009 20:22:14 GMT 1 anne said:

If it's going to be done, let's do it right.... This book is a good study on how to do it.
Griffon: Gun Dog Supreme
The History and the Story of How to Improve a Breed
by Joan Bailey

Ah yes. If anyone wants to live dangerously, they can plunge into the issue between the "purebred" wirehaired pointing (Korthals) griffons and the griffon x Cesky foucek crosses that Joan Bailey created.

Warning: It's not for the faint of heart (or the rest of the body for that matter)

[chiendog]

Jan 29, 2009 20:22:14 GMT 1 anne said:

If it's going to be done, let's do it right.... This book is a good study on how to do it.
Griffon: Gun Dog Supreme
The History and the Story of How to Improve a Breed
by Joan Bailey

There is lots of good stuff in the Bailey book for sure. It is well written and provides a tremendous amount of documentation. And I am sure any effort for the new blue would benefit by consulting the Griff folks for a list of do's and don't's. I would add however that there are other sources to consult. The first fellow I would speak to is Michel Comte in France. He completely re-created the Braque du Bourbonnais from scratch. Michal Urban in Slovakia would be a good person to consult as well. He is doing a lot of great work for the Slovak Pointer over there and knows about breeding to and within Weim lines.

There are a few folks in France that have done some, well, "creative" breeding with Weims as well. They may have a few secrets to share. Above all, I think that if the number one focus starts and ends with field performance above all for ever and ever, you stand a chance. Let even the teeniest tiny-est bit of show ring/pet market/fly ball/doggy dance/crapola into your efforts and within two generations you will have blue dogs dressed in clown suits on the cover of Metrosexual Latte Lover's Monthly magazine.

[tasha]

plenty of information in this thread to get you going... how exciting if you do get a new start always good to get the old broom out and wipe away the cobwebs! Wishing you every success and hopefully a new future for the blue...