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Post by rute_paredes on Jun 21, 2006 11:31:24 GMT 1
Hello dear all our boy Iago is now 1 year and 2 months old. He is and sweet-natured, loving, even-tempered dog and we don't have much to complain about regarding his behaviour towards other dogs, people or staying alone at home. We've been taking him to obedience classes since he was 4 months old. Miguel is much better than I am at showing who's boss and he gets a better response out of Iago than I do I've been working on this since it is my issue, not the dog's. We're having two main concerns at this point: one is that Iago is still pulling and tugging a lot when being walked on a lead (we are using a slip-chain collar as advised by the school). The other is recall: when he is walking around loose and we call him, he does not come to us immediatly, it takes him a minute to "make up his mind"and join us . Is this acceptable? I don't think so. How should we corrrect this? I have to say this recall problem happens mostly when he is in possession of his favourite toys, rubber balls. Wetdog: I've tried getting the Khoeler book you advise but the only copies I found for sale were almost 100 dollars Any advice?
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Post by Wetdog on Jun 22, 2006 5:48:52 GMT 1
Rute--yes, they ARE going up in value, and once you have used it you will see why. It is out of print and no new copies are being printed due to copyright and probate problems. However, if you check with Amazon.com you will find they currently have 49 copies available both new and used, and collectibles. Prices range from US$3.49 to US$244. www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0876056575/sr=8-1/qid=1150949703/ref=sr_1_1/102-0460762-1115350?%5Fencoding=UTF8 That is the result of the site search, if it doesn't work for you use the site search engine and type in Koehler+dog training. "The Koehler Method of Guard Dog Training"--basically the forunner of schutzhund work in the US, is also available and it contains the entire text of "The Koehler Method of Dog Training"(obedience). The pulling and inattention that you mention will be addressed in the very first exercise, foundation work with a long line(about 5-10 meters). One very good reason for you to do the course from start to finish comes right from your own observation that your husband is getting a much better response than you are. YOU need to train yourself as well as Iago, in how to be calm and in control. How to have the calm but commanding presense to get what you want from him. You won't be disappointed with the results if you do the course. And yes, ALL of your problems are only minor and you will be amazed at how quickly and easily you'll progress past them. The other benefit is, once you have gone through the basic obedience course--you will have a very good solid working knowledge of how to train and why you do things the way you will be shown. You'll find that advanced work such as open field or tracking(or schutzhund if you get the guard dog volume) is actually MUCH easier than the basic obedience course because now YOU will know how to train and get the results that you want.
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Post by Faust on Jun 22, 2006 15:03:47 GMT 1
Wetdog is right. Rute, you are the one who should "train yourself" first (in your head). When I feel insecure, I see that my dog senses this and than he takes control over me. We are training this obedience every day. Do the "come" command first on a long leash. Do it also when you play with him with a ball/or a toy that he likes and than if he refuses to come to you, pull shortly on a leash and try to make you look smaller, try to not look in his eyes too much and make your armes wide open, as you are welcoming him...this is the way you will show him that your intentions are good and that you will not take his toy away. When he comes to you, pet him take the toy, reward him by giving him his toy and letting him go away again...so he will see that if he comes to you, he will not loose the toy/ball... Today I had the same problem with Allegro while walking in the woods. He just run away after some smell of a wild animal, I called, and he didn't reacted. After he didn't obey my command, I sayed the commant "noooooo" after that comand comes the punishment. But he run away. I stopped calling him, when he came when he wanted, he got few punches on the but and I have put him on a leash, showing him that his disobedience makes me very angry and now he must be on a leash for punishment instead running freely arround. After few minutes I released him and asked him to "come", and when he came right away I praised him a lot, petted him a lot and/or gave him food or his favorite toy. ALWAYS as you call him, reward him with something interesting and new. He will always come to you with great happiness and curious what you have for him... When he is disobedient, be firm and show him also that you are in charge and that if he will make his own will, this will have not pleasant consenquences for him...he will learn very quick, and choose to be rather obedient, as this will be so much more fun than disobedience. As for walking on a leash, take your time. To walk on a leash correctly and relaxed 100% with no pulling at all, a dog has to be trained at least 2 years. This is how much I neaded to have full trained labrador who was not that exhuberant and active breed as weimaraner. This is just my expirience, as I am not a trainer, but I really do work with my dogs every day and find this two command that you are asking about as the most important commands that a dog must master to the perfection, so that both an owner and his dog can be happy relaxed and have trust in eachother. For me, It is not a problem to have him on a leash walking correctly all the time for 10-15 minutes while I train with him, and he is fully focused on me, the main problem is when he is walking on a leash through the urban area: on roads, paths, parks, center of the city, etc... Huh, I hope it helped a little bit, and it didn't make you even more confused... ;D
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Post by marjolein on Jun 22, 2006 21:59:45 GMT 1
I think the best way of dealing with this, is not punishment or correction mainly, but becoming unpredictable to a dog. When you put him on the lead it already starts. He knows you're off for a walk. He gets excited. You go out and he knows that if he pulls, you will follow him. He probably even knows where you're going to. Crack this habit. When you go out with him, don't go in the direction he wants to go. The minute he passes you and starts pulling again, turn around immediately and walk in another direction. Do NOT wait for him but "drag him" (can't think of a better word) along. When you turn and your dog is in the way, keep on walking. He has to pay attention to you (and not the other way around) and when he doesn't do that, his mum will walk into him (I don't mean you have to hurt him or anything, but make sure he gets the point. It's not funny when mum walks through me). In my very humble opinion, a slip chain can be great, but I think 90% of the people using it don't know how to use it. You should be able to give one short correction, which will not separate his head from his body, nor choke him, but will cause a reaction. If you don't do this correctly, it's better to throw it away I think. The bogging off issue wouldn't be acceptable for me either. I think you have to take a step back with this. Avoid at all times he can go wrong again so start training in an enclosed environment. Make sure you have treats so you can praise him big time once he comes back. When he does this ok, go on and try to make it more difficult. If your not confident enough yet, put him on a long line. Make sure he'll never be successful anymore by bogging off! I would never ever correct my dog for coming back either, no matter how angry your are or how nasty he's been. If you do that, he won't be very eager to come back to you. Of course you don't have to praise him when he finally comes, but never correct. Main thing with these problems is that like the others already said, you have to change your attitude to wards him. Give him a leader, someone he trusts. To achieve this, it's not only solving these 2 problems, but working on basic obedience, from the most simple things to very difficult things. One command in a neutral voice-» no reaction?-» correction (I'd do this by saying NO while making sure he knows you're not a happy bunny. Give the command again in a neutral voice again-» no reaction this time either? -» correct him first, remove him from the place/thing he finds more interesting than you, try to get his attention and give command again-» he does it? -» praise BIG TIMEJust to confuse you even more by coming up with another solution ;D
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Post by Faust on Jun 22, 2006 22:20:45 GMT 1
punishment is not good, but it helps also, especially when the time comes when a dog tests your limits. I have not punished allegro till now (he is now 12months old). he doesn't know what does it mean when he does something wrong and if he doesn't know what my "nooooo" means. to show him the meaning he has to be punished. this is why I mentioned the punishment. it's the last weapon against his bad behavior when he knows what you are asking of him but he has got something more important to do, than to obey...you got to win every time. you let him get away just once with disobedience, you loose, and you have to start training obidience from the very beginning...............
Please, don't think now that I'm punishing him every time he disobeys. I usualy use my voice, just like Marjolein wrote, and do exactly all this lessons in happy playful and positive manner. Marjolein, you are right at many points. I agree with you to the fullest.
I read also about this things you write, never to punish a dog when he goes away and you call and call and he doesn't come, and at the end he comes when he wants and than you are not allowed to punish him, as he connects this punishment with his comming to you...I noticed that this is not true at all. How would you explain than this: My pointer Norman, like every pointer, he likes running like a mad man and he runs very fast and very far away, and because of it all, for me "come" is the most important command he has to obey, as he runs very far away and this is why I insist on this. He comes on whistle. He really is obedient pointer. BUT sometimes he of course tests me the way when I'm with him and Allegro together in the woods and Norman knows that I am also busy with Allegro, he tries to use this by not coming right away. When this happens, I shout angry "noooo", and when he comes when he wants, iI just give him a slap on his butt and put him on a leash and make him walk on a leash with "heel" command for at least 3-5 minutes. It's like an hour for him who loves freedom and running. And than I release him. As I have released him I call him very soon to check if he understands why he was punished, just to remind him on what he was supposed to do before. And than he always runs happily to me. He gets than big petting reward and the best reward - the comand "go!" After that. He obeys all the time, as he learned it's better to come right away to be released quickly again, than not to come and to be on a leash for 3 minutes.
In some occasions they are veeeery clever and they do remember... this is what I wnated to say about "coming and not coming".
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Post by Cheryl on Jun 23, 2006 3:04:43 GMT 1
Hi rute, I agree with Marjolein, and when you see him beginning to watch you for signs of "which way are we going?" Then make it a very happy exciting thing, laugh and enjoy switching directions. His attention will be all yours.
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Post by marjolein on Jun 23, 2006 7:06:09 GMT 1
I know what you meant Kristina, but I just disagree with this method. I know it's not easy to avoid using it, they can really make you angry when they bogg off and don't want to come back, but I think they should never be punished when coming back, let alone being hit. I don't say saying no is wrong btw, as long as you get a reaction from him. When he's doing his own things and you say no and he doesn't react to it, that will only teach him that's it's ok to ignore you. You cannot correct at that time. But, I have a couple of those Weims, I know it's all easier said than done, hehehe!!!! Bloody dogs, LOL!
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Post by rute_paredes on Jun 23, 2006 14:15:23 GMT 1
dear all thank you SO much for all your wise advice. Your help is much appreciated. Wetdog - you're fabulous! thanks for the link. I'm ordering the book today and will follow it closely. Kristina, Marjolein, Cheryl - thank you for the practical insights. I know my attitude is a part of the problem, I'm trying to correct that. As you can imagine, my main concern with Iago's disobedience is that it can put him in harm's way. That's the reason why sometimes I'm fearful and apprehensive. But I have to be calm and assertive, not nervous and fidgety. I have noticed that in the days when I work on his commands at home for some time he does behave much better when we're out in the park. I've noticed that sometimes when he is misbehaving and I say "No" or "Bad dog" he doesn't pay attention. I've tried walking up to him, seizing him by his collar and getting his attention, then forcing him to do what I originally wanted. I've been told this is wrong because it teaches the dog that you'll come to him whenever you want something so I've stopped doing it. Darn dogs. I'll keep you all posted on our progress rute
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Post by marjolein on Jun 23, 2006 15:36:38 GMT 1
Hehehe, don't you just love them Rute? Keep us updated please and good luck!
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Post by Wetdog on Jun 24, 2006 7:21:24 GMT 1
Absolutely NOT---enforcing your command when Iago chooses to ignore you and he KNOWS it is just what you need to be doing. That said, there are certain ways of saying no that may be your problem. DON"T repeat yourself, ONE command ONLY. No begging and no pleading, no tugging, no nervous apprehension---that is what you need to be learning, and you will be amazed at how that one thing will affect other areas of you life too, in dealing with people, you'll find yourself presenting yourself very differently, and I have a feeling you will like the "new" you.
When you come to the last part of the course(off lead work), you will learn some very good ways to extend your "reach" and convince Iago that it is in his own best interest to do what you tell him, even without a leash on.
Praise is importatnt--and you will use it a LOT, but it is no substitute for a well timed, well handled correction.
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