Puppy injections & socialisation

[sian]

I know this is probably going to seem very strange to you, but it's one of those many "doing things differently" things you find, when you move to a different country!

We are hoping to get a new puppy next year , and have already been to see the breeder. I remember that he said that the first injections would already have been given, at around 6 weeks...

In the UK, the 1st injection is given at 8 weeks (normally by the new owner, as part of the vet check-up after purchase). The 2nd injection is given at 12 weeks. Depending on the breed, you then can start walking the dog "in public" - ie in public areas, where there are other dogs. Ideally for injection purposes, you are supposed to wait a week or so after the 2nd injection, to get max protection. However, when we got Cassie, I was advised to start to take her out as soon as possible, as early socialisation is so important with Weimaraners. So we went on our first walk in the park on the way back from the 2nd vet visit!

What is the normal procedure here on the mainland? And in Belgium in particular?
When do you start to expose the puppy to new noises and experiences?
With the puppy held in the arms, or with the puppy on the ground?
When is it normal for the puppy to be allowed to mix with other "safe" dogs (ie dogs that are up-to-date with their jabs)?
And in a general public area (where you can't guarantee the health)?

As you may imagine, I have my own thoughts on how to go about things, but it will be helpful to know what the locals think is "normal"!!

Sian

[fialCo]

well. there are different types of vaccinations. You may vaccinate your puppy three times at 6, 10 and 12 weeks of age, but usually after a second vaccination you may go out with your pupp.
New methods recommend vaccination in two times only. So that means you might normally go outside with your pupp, even when he's only 10-11 weeks old.
Breeders are right saying that you must take your pupp as soon as possible:)

[sian]

Ah yes....

... to make things even more complicated, my only experience is from 10 years ago! (then they gave 2 injections of Kavak and Dazpipl, 4 weeks apart)

So now-a-days, I would expect to go to the vets at 10 weeks - for the puppy's second injection, and then be able to go out with her?(the puppy, that is!!)

I will certainly be taking the puppy places as soon as possible! But what do people do here? I've only seen one new puppy "at home" in a Belgian household. To say that what they did would be frowned upon in the UK is an understatment.... But I don't know if it is normal here...

[fialCo]

Sian, calm down:) Belgians are wonderful, really.
So the thing is that you have to choose programme of vaccination. If the breeder gives first vaccination at 6 weeks of age, then second might be at 8 or at 10 and 12. I do agree that it is enough to get 2 vaccinations. I love that NOBIVAC puppy vaccination, it is very well known in our country, and usually has no other side-effects:)
Surely after a second vaccination you may go out with your puppy, but in my case, I got three vaccinations, so after a second I was still careful, because the second vaccination did not have anything against rabbies! This is the point:)

[sian]

don't worry - I'm calm!!

I'd just like to know what the norm is here... Any thoughts from those who live in this lovely country? (yes - I am being serious! I love it here!!)

[jai]

good luck sian.. i live in Germany and things are a bit different here too..
jai

[fialCo]

Sian, I hope you do not feel insulted or smth, cause I didn't mean that you were too nervous or smth!! Just wanted to comfort you:)

[sian]

No - you just can't see my smile across the internet!!

[fialCo]

okey, but I might feel it;)
or not:)

[marjolein]

We give jabs at 6, 9 and 12 weeks. Just ask your own vet what he advices, cause there can be a difference between different vets. There is no wrong and right in this, so don't worry.

I'd take the pup out asap, despite the small risk of catching something. I think the early weeks are the most important ones and I would take advantage of that.
Good luck!!!!

[tasha]

try and avoid places where alot of other dogs go that will reduce the possibility of disease, rivers and areas of still water is also a good place to avoid so as not to pick up things from the residing rats etc.

[christina]

Hi Sian,

Sorry to get into this debate a bit late, but irrespective of different countries, it would be wise to inform ourselves about the vaccination issue and the dangers of over-vaccinations, so that we can make an informed decision of how to handle the problem. We have all been brain washed into thinking that we must vaccinate our pups year after year to keep them healthy. The opposite is true.... over-vaccination has a lot to answer for.

In my view, the question of exposing a pup to new situation - and whether on the arm or on the ground, is a common sense one.
As Marjolein said - she is taking out her pups for socialization as early as possible.... it is important to socialize those pups at an early age. As far as immunity is concerned - pups do have the antibodies from their dam ... and they should last for as long as 12 - 16 weeks. But we are still talking about a young, immature immune system. As long as you are careful as to where you take your pup and you only mix with healthy dogs and other healthy animals, and avoid common public places, as Tasha mentioned, the risk of the puppy contracting anything is very small. I would avoid exposing a young, unvaccinated pup to walks in parks and streets .... but you could carry it around and introduce places and noises etc. But to take it to friends homes and let it roam places you know are not over-run by unknown dogs or wild-life, should be fairly safe.

The reason why puppies are vaccinated up to three times in the beginning is not to "boost" any immunity, as commonly believed, but to make sure that the maternal antibodies have not blocked the vaccine from taking effect.... Please study the following website thoroughly, particularly "Immunology 101 & 102". The following is an extract from it:

www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/Current%20Knowledge%20of%20Immunology%20101.htm

....Different puppies may receive more antibodies depending on the mothers antibody levels and depending on how much they nurse.These maternal antibodies block a vaccine from having any effect. The antibody levels will decline at different rates in different puppies. They will decline to a low enough level that the vaccine virus can replicate and stimulate the immune system beginning at 6 weeks in some puppies and sometimes last as late as 16 weeks in other puppies. We give a series of vaccines every three to four weeks so we can break through the maternal antibodies at the earliest possible time. It is not important how many vaccines the patients get. What is important is how old they are when they get the last vaccine. The older they are, the better an immunity they can get due to the lack of maternal antibodies interfering with the vaccine, and also due to age related immunity......


Because I have learned the hard way how much damage vaccination can do, my personal choice would be to vaccinate a puppy as late as possible, probably not before 12 - 16 weeks of age, and because Weimaraners are predisposed to adverse vaccine reactions, I would have the vaccines for distemper and parvo split, so that the young fragile immune system is not over-stimulated by multiple components of vaccines.. - Please do not get me wrong, I am not against vaccinations per se, in my view they are very necessary and they save life's - but I am very much against over-vaccinations. Personally I would not do ' booster ' vaccinations, but would do yearly titre blood tests instead, to verify if there are still enough antibodies. In all likelihood there will be, and there is no such thing as a 'booster' for a modified live vaccine. Existing antibodies will block any 'booster' vaccination from taking effect.

Antibodies, once formed, for Parvo, Distemper and Hepatitis are proven to last for at least 7 years, but in all likelihood for the duration of a dogs life.

I have heaps of information on my files about the vaccination issue, but it would fill up too much space to post it all on here. The above mentioned website is that of Dr. Bob Rogers, a Texan vet, who took the whole of the American Veterinary fraternity & the Pharmaceutical Industries to court for professional misconduct by over-vaccinating our pets. He won his case, and as a consequence the Pharmaceutical Industries were forced to revise their vaccination protocol from yearly boosters to 3 yearly .... still not enough, but a big victory! Vets in the UK followed Dr. Rogers' courageous example, and made waves along similar lines here in the UK. All the information is readily available on the net, for anybody who wants to look into the matter. But everything one needs to know about vaccinations is laid out in Dr. Rogers' website.

How and when and how often to vaccinate is a personal decision. We all have to feel comfortable with what we are doing for our charges, but we owe them, I feel, to fully inform ourselves, so that we can make the right decisions, rather than rely on the (often less than honest) information our vets give us. Vets are hard hit by clients not wanting their dogs vaccinated every year. Vaccinations represent - I read - about 30% of the vets yearly income.....


Christina

[marjolein]

In England, you tend to see a lot more problems when it comes to vaccinating pups. Not sure why, but a possibility could be genes (or genepool?).
Although I know it can always happen, I wouldn't worry about it at all.
To rule things out, you can always give homeopatic drops and pro-biotics shortly before and after the injection, to avoid any side effects.
It's good to post about it though Christina. It's better to be safe than sorry!!!!

[tasha]

I didn't have any problems vaccinating bonnie or Ayla but do know the consequence of not vaccinating. Some dogs do seem more prone to problems that others but it might be down to the specific vacine and the quantity given. Bonnie and Ayla both had their first jabs at 7 weeks and had completed the course by 10 weeks so could go out properly at 11 weeks. I was more concerned about the level of the rabies jabs for the pet passports than their first jabs.

[sian]

Thank you all so much for your input, and espcially Christina, for putting so much information up for me.

We will proceed as we would at home - with caution, and fun!

Marjolein - what are the best homeopathic treatments to use before and after the vaccinations?

Sian

[marjolein]

You should ask that on the other forum Sian, I just cannot remember the name......

[Alkemist]

Sian, we have nosodes from Ainsworths Homeopathic Pharmacy, London, w1g 8uf tel[phone]. These were provided by our homeopathic vet, he gave us distemperinum 30c, hepatitis a 30c, leptospirosis 30c, parvo virus 30c, all combined in one tablet, given one twice daily for five days, then twice daily on one day per month, not within half hour of food, and the tablets must not be touched (or it can taint them). We also have kennel cough 30c as a separate tablet, given exactly the same.
The homeopathic tablets can be used to prepare the dog for conventional vaccination.

We swear by them, usually I give conventional puppy vaccinations, and I never give boosters, just the homeopathic treatments instead,but please this is just my personal choice you must do as you see fit.

Muriel on the UK forum does have an awful lot of knowledge, so ask her too...

Nina

[tasha]

does the pet passport scheme recognise any of the homeopathic options??? I've only gone down the general jabs route so am not sure if these would qualify or not.

[Alkemist]

Tasha as far as I am aware, homeopathic vaccines are NOT recognised for the purpose of a UK pet passport.

If you find out otherwise please let me know,

Nina

[marjolein]

No, they're not recognised.