Hunting style - need an opinion please

[Landlord]

I've reached a sticking point with my dog's training in that if the ground has nothing on it, he will run it (correct to wind) but not hunt until he hits scent. The dog is 3, male and has had a lot of game and scent. I believe he is extremely intelligent but also very strong willed (a proper weimie!) to put this into context, first time he saw a gun (we were training), he watched it as he worked. We thought maybe he was watching the trainer so we asked someone else to carry the gun. He watched the gun. He loves guns, he knows what they are for. I found him sitting everytime we cocked the gun (cleaning it at the time). I have done picking up with him and he snubbed a gun because he didn't hit anything and went to work for the man on the other side who was hitting stuff. Take him out with a gun and he steps up a drive. Take him out without it and he works well but knows you are not going to shoot anything. Run him on bare ground and he runs fast but does not hunt until he hits scent (so far hasn't missed anything) run him in cover with lots of scent, he works well and produces game. I know ideally, he should work in whatever I ask him to in case there is 1 bird in whatever bare ground. My question is, am I worrying too much about a small problem and has anyone any ideas how to solve it?

[marjolein]

I'm not too sure what you mean when you say he doesn't hunt. Is he with his nose on the ground all the time?
And could it be an option that he has a very good nose and b4 he even enters the field, he already knows there's nothing there?
That might be the case, since you told us he's never missed anything yet.

Anyway, I thought my dogs a cue for hunting. When they're with their nose on the ground, I give them this cue and they start hunting with their heads high again. This is best to be tought when the dog is still young, but it can be done with an older dog as well.
I started this with Daan from the moment she was only a pup. I did this by hiding her food somewhere in the field. The moment I saw she had the smell in her little nose, I gave the cue.
With Mowgli on the other hand, I only started with this method a couple of weeks ago. She used to be a very good hunter, but we blew it big time because we had no idea what we were doing. They told us it was very good when she tracked hares and chased them. That resulted in a dog who was hunting low. Not good....
So a couple of weeks ago, I took her with me in the field on the lead. Every time she wanted to put her nose on the ground, I told her off. The moment she used her nose up in the air, I praised her big time and gave the cue. You have to be very persistent, but it can be done.
We're not there yet, but she has improved big time over the last couple of weeks.
Hope this makes sense.....

[anne]

I have seen this a lot in American Weimaraners and feel it is something that needs to be corrected in our dogs. To me, this indicates a lack of drive, and also a lot of smarts. I have seen various degrees of this problem from those that won't hunt AT ALL having no clue what they are doing out there until they hit scent and then will merely point -- to other dogs that just step it up a notch when they hit scent. My bitch does this a little bit, and she is an exeprienced hunting dog. She too knows exactly what that shotgun means and has a little bit of that "not today, you don't have your shotgun" attitude, which I dislike. My male field champion is ready to hunt, any day, any time, any conditions, doesn't matter if he's run his pads off, if he has a mouth full of porcupine quills, is over 100 degrees, raining or whatever (all have happened to him). This is the quality that I want to see in my dogs. I think this type of drive is bred. You can maybe mix up his training by taking him out without a shotgun? Do you ever used planted birds in your training? You can take a blank pistol, plant a dizzied bird, and then when he works his bird, blank it, and then kill the bird yourself and either let him retrieve it or not. This way he will learn that there might be birds even if you don't have a shotgun. I guess you don't really even need to blank the bird.

[Landlord]

Thanks for your replies. He is a passionate hunter and certainly does not lack drive. I would say that he has a very good nose. He appears to know better though if you know what I mean. He will stand with his nose in the air before we enter the field and maybe deciding if it is worth doing. He does not stick his nose to the ground but looks like he is just running rather than hunting. It only happens in fields not wooded areas.

I mostly train him without a gun but if we take a gun we are working not training as such.

I am going to try him in a field that I own where there are pheasants and hares but they are at one end. I will start him at the bare side to make him run the bare ground and then hopefully we will find something at the end. Hopefully this way, he might associate that even though it is bare for most of the field there is a possiblity of something still there. He maybe too clever though and decide that he knows there are birds at the other end and just run faster to get there! Btw, I haven't had my dogs on this field this year yet.

[anne]

Emstan,

I guess we might have a little different idea of what "drive" means, and I'm sure there are differences in regards to what we expect from dogs here and over there. I am not trying to be rude or anything, but when a dog will consider if hunting is "worth it" or not, TO ME that indicates that he's not always ready 100% of the time to get out there, no matter if there is only a one in a million chance that there might be game. Again, I have this problem with my female which I think is starting work itself out as she gains more and more experience. But with my male that "desire" was always there, it didn't matter if he didn't think there was game, he just kept going and going becauase, well that was what he was bred to do, he is compelled to do it, if that makes any sense.

It sounds to me like your dog since he is experienced has merely learned (again, smart!!) that fields do not have apporpriate cover for game.

I still think that planting birds in strategic locations will help wtih this problem, he sounds smart, I think he will learn to just race across the open field and get to where he knows there is game... And anyway, is that so bad? That IS where game usually is... unless you are training him for competition?

Anne

[Landlord]

Hi there,

I think I understand what you are saying and will give it a try. He never used to be like this and would hunt anything but as he has got more game experience this is what has happened.!

Anyway, thanks for your reply and good luck with your weims!

[arielskennels]

Emstan,
Would you consider your dog "a complete" hunter? If so, then his further "training" is only perfecting and I think that if the dog is telling you that there is nothing there, then I would always trust the dog. Especially if you are hunting him on wild birds. If he does not catch scent, then there may not be any birds there to get. Maybe he is telling you in his own way that he does not want to waste 'your time'. I really don't think that missing that 'one last bird' or the 'only bird in the field' is such a bad thing. If he doesn't find it, I doubt that it is there to be found. It sounds like to me that you are happy with the way that he is hunting now, but want to perfect him. My suggestion is to yes, if you can, get some pen raised birds. Dizzy them and then plant them stragetically at one side of the field, or in the middle of the field, or put one or two birds at the beginning of the field and then no more. Then wait about 30 minutes before you allow him into the field to make sure that your scent is off the grasses and the bird. It is also a good idea to wear leather gloves when handling the birds before you plant them (I just automatically assume that... sorry!) That will also give the bird time to 'wake-up' and realize its surroundings. Then after 30 minutes or so, allow your 'man' to go into the field and hunt.

I have a GSP that will not keep his nose on the ground until he finds that first bird.. He is a NSTRA (National Shoot to Retrieve) Champion Pointer. I don't mind if he runs into the field using his nose to smell the air until he hits that first bit of scent and then his nose hits the ground to locate its exact location. To me, my Weims tend to be about the same way. My Harley will use her nose in the air and work the outskirts of a field until she finds the slightest bit of scent. Then she goes into the middle to find the location of the bird.

I have been training pointing dogs of all breeds for over 11 years now and most of the time when an adult dog comes to me, it already has its own 'hunting style' established. Maybe your 'man' has his and is perfecting it?

Just a suggestion. I hope that he does well for you and finds you loads of birds!
Good Luck!
Melissa

[Landlord]

Thanks for that, and you are right in what you say. I was just getting to a point when I was wondering if he was wrong in the way he covers bare fields and whether I needed to do something about it and if so, what. They are intelligent and so I think he just wants to get past the bare stuff as fast as he can to get to the good stuff. Not sure how this style will go down in competition here but I will let you know! All the keepers I have spoken to don't think it is a problem so maybe I should stop worrying about it and jsut get on with it. Like you say I need to trust him - it should be my mantra! I keep saying I should trust him more and he doesn't let me down

[Landlord]

Just a quick update on this. I took my boy to see a different trainer - a person who is a top gundog trainer and has had field trial champs as well as trained and bred them. When I was asked to hunt a bare field that had been cleared of game and also had had 3 dogs run over it first I thought he is not going to hunt.
I cast the dog off and when we got to the end the trainer said "there is nothing wrong with that" so I think I will stop worrying about it!

[marjolein]

Good to hear that Emstan!!!!!