When and how to start

[asmyrnos]

Our baby Rufus is 9 weeks and we want tokow when to start him training for hunting work. I have never owned a hunting dof before and have no idea how to start. If anyone has advice it would be extremely welcome.

[arielskennels]

We start our pups on just a wing tied to an old fishing pole and allow them to "sight" point and just make it a "chasing" game if they don't wanna point. The point of this excersize is to get them familiar with the smell and the sight of the game that you want them to eventually work into finding wild in the field. I have attached a pic to show how we work our pups with this process..





Just remember that when they start chasing, you can not allow them to catch it. Sometimes they will, but do not punish them, just take it out of their mouth and keep flipping it back and forth until eventually they will stop and point it... when that happens, tell them in a higher tone of voice that he/she is a good dog.. then continue to flip it and play only for about 10 minutes at a time. At this age, their attention span is not that great and the more that you make a game of it, the more they will enjoy it!

[anne]

I don't know where you are located, but find a mentor that can show you the ropes. It's much easier especially with field work to DO than to READ.

9 weeks is very young, at this age, you just want to foster his independence, nose and love of using his nose and being out in the fields. Take him to various fields and let him explore. If you can go somewhere where there are wild birds, let him investigate but at this age, just keep quiet and let him figure it out. NO pressure! And the less interference from you the better. All you are trying to do now is to let him learn to use his nose and learn to be a little indpendent but at his age he is going to be underfoot. Just let the runs in the field teach him. Your job at this age is to EXPOSE him, NOT training.

I personally HATE wing on a string! It teaches dogs to sight point. Very very limited use is OK in my opinion, but in the long run, I don't think it really does anything very positive. That is just my opinion, and others (obviously) will disagree.

[Kobie]

Arielkennels,

We use somethimes this methode, but never on such a young puppy !


And Anne,

I completely agree with you. A wing can teach only sight pointing.
No pressoir at this age, just acpuaintance with game in the field is enough at this age....


If you don't have game at home or no acces to a field, try to buy a partridge and use him in a cage, not in sight of the pup, you can easely pass the cage with the pup.... And see what your pup do ........

[arielskennels]

Anne,
I really don't want to get into a debate about training methods, but IN MY OPINION, you do not want to allow a pup into a field where there may be pheasants or other loud birds when they 'kick up' and have him "stumble" across one and then become scared b/c of the way that they 'kick up'.. I have had to retrain numerous dogs because their owners have "allowed" them to 'explore', the pups get hit in the face with a toe nail from a pheasant or grouse along with the amount of noise that is associated with the flush and then they become very scared and will not leave their owners side at all when put into the same position.
Yes, 9 weeks is a bit young for ANY "official" training, but to introduce the wing on the pole allows them to become familiar with the scent of the bird and the feel of the wing feathers in their mouth in a controlled and familiar atmosphere. At that age, it MUST be a game! Nothing more and nothing less. IF you try to 'train' at that age, you may ruin the dog and never have a hunter at all...... Puppies MUST be puppies just as children MUST be children for a certain amount of time for thier life...

Yes, I agree when it was said that a puppy must have NO pressure! He has to learn independence and self confidence to become a great hunting dog.

It really is not that hard to go from sight pointing to smell pointing IF it is done correctly... I have been doing it for many years and will continue to do it.

Now, to explain "correctly" to those who might not know... you MUST put scent on the wing so that the 'sight' and 'smell' are there and are associated together. Or use a fresh wing that was off of a bird killed less than 8 hours prior to putting it on a 'string' or a pole. We use alot of pen raised birds and when they are killed for meat or die in the pen (as some do), the wings are removed with leather gloves so that the scent of a human is not present.... then tied to the pole... IF we must use frozen, then when we are dethawing the wing, we put it into a plastic bag and add a few drops of scent to it....

As I said before.. I do not want to get into a debate on training methods as they are just TRUE opinions of every trainer... Every trainer has thier own style and their own methods.. Just as every person has their own opinions about everything.

[arielskennels]

oops.... I'm sorry, I hit enter and it posted before I was complete with my thoughts...

Kobie,
when you use the wing on pole method, at what age do you use it? We use it on very young pups up to the age of maybe 4 months and then start dragging the scented wing on the ground and hiding it in a bush or behind some tall grass.. Then by the time that they are about 6 months old we drag the wing, but replace it with a pen raised pheasant or quail (which ever wing we have)... At about 9-12 months we start their 'official' field training and work with the commands and then at about 18 months we start really cracking down on them on the obedience and the field commands...

We like to allow our pups to mature at their own rate and do not want to push the 'official' training onto them too early. They normally tell us when they are ready by the way that they work and the independance that they show doing the 'yard work'.

[Kobie]

I would say, this explanation looks fair of you, Arielkennels.

I'm also not convinsed by starting training at such young age. A pup need to have his puppy hood.....
Sertainly a pup, age between 8-12 weeks, exposing all is so live important. I would say, let the pup explore different things in this periode, and let him 'taste' the smell of game, but nothing too much.

I'm not quite sure I understand the word 'pole methode'. Do you mean shoot the wing into the air ?

And what do you mean by 'dragging the scented wing'. Sorry, but I don't speek the whole day English

[asmyrnos]

well that gives me a good foundation to start Rufus up. Is there somewhere to buy quail or pheasant scent?

[Irena]

asmyrnos said:

Is there somewhere to buy quail or pheasant scent?

www.dresslersdog.com/

and in particular www.dresslersdog.com/hunt02.html - scents

[anne]

I'm not here to argue either, which is why I said "in my opinion" and "personally." Sorry if I came across as argumentative, not my intention, I just wanted to point out the reasons I don't care for wing on a string. I definitely agree that pheasant can cause problems for a young pup and am glad you brought that up. We have quail and chukar here so that wasn't on the top of my head, and it is an important caution.

It's quite apparent though that we all agree, exposure at this age, let the pup be a pup, and no pressure. It takes a long time to develop a finished hunting dog. Here in the US, most field champions are about 4 years old. Some trainers like to do everything quickly, the youngest to do this, or that. The hardest thing about field training IMO is to work at the pace of the dogs, some just aren't ready for various steps that another dog of the same age might be ready for. I have made plenty of mistakes pushing my dogs because of comparing to other dogs and that is a huge error, and hard to avoid because I think it's human nature to compare. It's much better to err on the side of caution and going slow, espeically with Weimaraners who I feel can be very sensitive and can shut down with too much pressure.

[anne]

I forgot to say that at 9 weeks you can probably start some conditioning to the gun. Do this with extreme care so that you do not scare your pup. We start with cap pistols when the pup is eating and shoot it from far away, then work your way closer. If the pup turns around, you are going too fast. He should totally ignore the sound. Then when he is older and chasing birds, you can shoot a blank pistol when he is in full chase. Hopefully your breeder made a point of exposing the litter to lots of noises, banging things and so on.

[arielskennels]

Kobie,
I am sorry, I forget sometimes and think that everyone knows what I am talking about. My sincere appoligies!

OK, let me explain...

Kobie asked "I'm not quite sure I understand the word 'pole methode'. Do you mean shoot the wing into the air ?"

No, I mean to take a dead bird and remove the wing (wearing leather gloves) and then tie it to a pole of some type. We normally use an old fishing pole that we purchased at a garage or rummage sale. We never shoot "the wing". It is only a begining for the introduction of the game. (The leather gloves keep the 'human scent' off of the wing as much as possible)

Kobie asked "And what do you mean by 'dragging the scented wing'"

When they are ready for this, then I take a different wing that has been removed from a bird and place it into a plastic zip lock bag and then add a few drops of scent into the bag. I allow the scent to soak into the wing for a few hours (sometimes over night) and then wearing leather gloves to remove the wing from the bag and then tie it to a pole. After the wing has been tied to a pole, then it is taken out into the front yard (back yard or wherever has short grass) and drug across the ground to place the scent on the ground. Then the pole and wing are hidden in taller grass or under a bush or thick tree. (Where birds may typically be located) This gets them to associate the ground is where the smell is going to be. They have already associated the smell to the wing in the previous excersize. So, once the smell hits their nose.. they start following it! You can also put a drop of scent onto the ground in the path of where you will be dragging the wing.. Just depends on the dog and what age you will begin this. We normally begin this excersize at about 3-4 months old.

I have seen alot of hunting dogs that do not put their nose to the ground until after the first bird has been found. The second excersize teaches them that the smell is on the ground and that is where they need to 'hunt' for it.


Anne said "I forgot to say that at 9 weeks you can probably start some conditioning to the gun. Do this with extreme care so that you do not scare your pup."

This is SOOO true!! The way that we introduce our pups to "noise" and to the 'gun' is I have 2 children.. my boy is 11 and my girl is 9. They love to go to the store and get the $1 cap guns that come with about 1000 caps in the package.. They then take all the pups out and start running around the yard playing 'cops and robbers' with the puppies.. It is really fun to watch and I don't think that the kids know exactly how 'good trainers' they are! LOL!!! ;D I have not had a puppy yet become scared because they know the kids from birth and are comfortable around them and playing with them that I don't even think the puppies know that they are being 'conditioned' to a gun! I always suggest to families that purchase my pups, that the first thing that they need to do is to bond with the puppy and then start playing with the pup like you were a kid again.. I could not tell you the number of people that have taken this advise and used it to the best (and had fun doing it too!). I love to get e-mails from families with the pups and kids tell me just how much fun that is! (I think it is great to see working mothers and fathers purchase a pup and then the family 'reunites' in play with the pup... )

Oh, and by the way... Kobie... my name is Melissa. You are welcome to call me that..

I hope that I have explained good enough so that you understand.. If not, I can reword it so that you can understand.. (I can also translate into several languages.. I can e-mail it in whatever language you are more fluent in .. if you prefer.)

Melissa

[Kobie]

Thanks Melissa,

Dutch language would be for you not so easy I guess

Joke !!

Best Regards
Kobie

It's nice to chat about this with abroad breeders......

[anne]

Melissa,
That is so cute about your pups and kids. What fun!
Anne

[arielskennels]

You would be surprised at how much training comes out of "fun and games"!! The kids and puppies have no clue just what my intentions are when I spend only a few dollars and it gives hours of 'play' training!

Mel

[Ingvild]

When they are ready for this, then I take a different wing that has been removed from a bird and place it into a plastic zip lock bag and then add a few drops of scent into the bag. I allow the scent to soak into the wing for a few hours (sometimes over night) and then wearing leather gloves to remove the wing from the bag and then tie it to a pole. After the wing has been tied to a pole, then it is taken out into the front yard (back yard or wherever has short grass) and drug across the ground to place the scent on the ground. Then the pole and wing are hidden in taller grass or under a bush or thick tree. (Where birds may typically be located) This gets them to associate the ground is where the smell is going to be. They have already associated the smell to the wing in the previous excersize. So, once the smell hits their nose.. they start following it! You can also put a drop of scent onto the ground in the path of where you will be dragging the wing.. Just depends on the dog and what age you will begin this. We normally begin this excersize at about 3-4 months old.

I have seen alot of hunting dogs that do not put their nose to the ground until after the first bird has been found. The second excersize teaches them that the smell is on the ground and that is where they need to 'hunt' for it.

Here people are very hesitant of letting young dogs follow tracks because allot of Weimararaners have to much of a tendency to put their nose to the ground (or run with a low head). I was just curious to what your thoughts were about that?

(Love the pictures of the pups. We use the pole method here to.)

[anne]

Ingvild,
I know this question wasn't directed to me, but from my experience and of those I know that hunt their dogs here in the US, we also do not like dogs that put their nose to the ground, this is particulary true of dogs that are competed in field trials. They like a flashy dog that hunts quickly, stylishly and with head up air-scenting, not ground-scenting. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but in many cases, just like in showing Weims, a flashy dog with head up and running with good groundspeed, can win over a dog that is less flashy. (This is field trials I'm talking about, other hunt testing we have here don't care so much about that.0
I also agree that Weimaraners have a strong tracking tendency.Just my 2 cents
Anne