Video clip from training "pointing"

[Ingvild]

Since we have been discussing how we train our dogs in different countries I thought this video clip might be of interest. It's of my dog Atlas taken earlier this year when he was a "demo" dog at a training center for bird dogs. The bird is put out in a cage without the dog seeing ( of course) the dog is then asked to search. The distance to the cage varies. In this case it was quite close because it was just a demonstration. After the dog has pointed the bird he would normally be asked to flush it, but because the bird is in a cage that was not done here.

www.fuglehunder.no/lkj.wmv

Mostly we train our dogs on wild birds, but in the summer this is not possible and this is one of the methods used.

[Irena]

OMG, STUNNING!!!!!! Thank you so much for posting this!!!!!

[Irena]

No, I just have to ask. Sorry if this sounds dumb.

In our training sessions, with Audry, we started with a cage too (quail). But the grass was tall and I think she doesn't get this idea too well that there is something hiding and it is fun to find it.

I was wondering, would it make sense to hide the birds (cage) in a field with lower grass, like that in your video, to help her get the idea that you go and you find something, and it is not just hopping in some field with tall grass?

Is this wrong, or would it make sense? If no, what would be the pitfalls of letting her look in lower grass first, to get the idea?

[Ingvild]

I'm not sure if putting the bird in a cage in lower grass will help all that much (as long as you are sure that she got a smell of the bird, but I don't necessarily think it will hurt either.
With young "beginner" dogs we often start by showing them the bird to catch their interest and "wake them up". We let the birds flap their wings and just hold them up to the dogs and show them the bird of course they get the smell of these "strange interesting things" . After that you could try dizzying the bird and putting it down on the ground (then you don't need a cage) and putting her on a very long lead (5-10 meters). Then walk her up (in front of you) slowly, making sure she has the wind in her face so he can catch the scent of the bird. If she doesn't point the bird, take her back and try a few more times, always making sure that she has the wind in her face, before you let someone poke the bird so it flies away when she gets close. If she does point the bird let her stand there for a bit before someone "pokes" the bird for you. Hold her back, gently, with the lead. Usually I would tell you not to touch the dog or talk to her while she is pointing, but if she is pointing "loosely" and you want a more "firm" point you may try to brush your hand through her coat in the opposite direction of the way the coat grows ( in other words brush your hand from back and forwards toward the neck. Most dogs will then point more firmly. (I'm not sure if I'm explaining this very well..)

[marjolein]

Yes, I think this is the way to go Irena. Unless you have a dog that points naturally, you need to wake their interest first. And once she knows what you want from her, you can go to the field and she'll understand how to cover the grounds to find birds. Of course this is a long process, but with a lot of patience, you'll get there.
If you have a dog that points naturally (Daan was on point for the first time at 16 weeks, which makes things somewhat easier), you can start in the field straight away. Let the dog run and let her find game. I'd even let them chase it, in the beginning. The more eager they get to find that bird, the better it is.

[anne]

Lovely staunch point!! It's interesting to me to see a dog with a long tail on point, the tail isn't as high up as I'm used to, probably because the tail is longer.

Irena, we start puppies or inexperienced dogs with dizzied birds and let the dog learn to find and then let them chase. We are trying to awaken the prey instinct by letting them chase, and even catch in the very early stages. You want to get your dog bird-crazy, and also to learn not to fear the bird but know that it masters the bird (thus a couple times of catching is OK, IMO). After that, we make sure we use good flyers so even though we will allow a chase, the dog can NEVER catch the bird. In this way the dog starts to learn that pointing is the only way to make the bird STAY there and not fly away -- which after a time, the dog will learn that he cannot run and catch a bird. Then as you start shooting birds ONLY the ones he points, he will learn that he NEEDS YOU to get the bird (because he will point and then you will shoot, he starts learning it's a team effort). This is why wild birds are the best training tool. The birds teach the dog. A wild bird will never allow a dog to catch it. If you have to use pen-raised birds, then make sure they can fly well. The ones we get here are usually very bad flyers, which is why we try to use pigeons with young dogs because they are cheap, fly well and have a strong scent. Using their retrieving instinct as a reward and shooting birds that the dog handles correctly is IMO the best way to train a birddog.

Anne

[Ingvild]

anne said:

Lovely staunch point!! It's interesting to me to see a dog with a long tail on point, the tail isn't as high up as I'm used to, probably because the tail is longer.

Irena, we start puppies or inexperienced dogs with dizzied birds and let the dog learn to find and then let them chase. We are trying to awaken the prey instinct by letting them chase, and even catch in the very early stages. You want to get your dog bird-crazy, and also to learn not to fear the bird but know that it masters the bird (thus a couple times of catching is OK, IMO). After that, we make sure we use good flyers so even though we will allow a chase, the dog can NEVER catch the bird. In this way the dog starts to learn that pointing is the only way to make the bird STAY there and not fly away -- which after a time, the dog will learn that he cannot run and catch a bird. Then as you start shooting birds ONLY the ones he points, he will learn that he NEEDS YOU to get the bird (because he will point and then you will shoot, he starts learning it's a team effort). This is why wild birds are the best training tool. The birds teach the dog. A wild bird will never allow a dog to catch it. If you have to use pen-raised birds, then make sure they can fly well. The ones we get here are usually very bad flyers, which is why we try to use pigeons with young dogs because they are cheap, fly well and have a strong scent. Using their retrieving instinct as a reward and shooting birds that the dog handles correctly is IMO the best way to train a birddog.

Anne

Thanks
I think the "chasing part" is as you say a good way to get the dogs interest, but in allot of countries in Europe the dog has to flush the bird with out help form the owner. If you have let the dog run after the bird you will often have a hard time getting them to stop running after they have flushed. That's why we never let them run after, but hold young dogs back using a long lead . I don't know how they do it in your country Irena, but I thought I would mention it.

[anne]

Yes, our dogs don't flush. The dog points and holds point while the handler flushes the bird and shoots the bird and the dog only moves on retrieve command. Chasing can backfire and we do not allow it in competition, although some hunters will allow the start of a chase after shot for retrieve. What I have found with naturally cooperative dogs that they will stop chasing when they learn that there is no point to it, but we do help the process along with a long lead or an electric collar. But IMO it helps when the DOG thinks it's HIS idea that chasing is no use. I've seen a lot of dogs lose a lot of style by too much yanking on the lead and shock collars. I agree with you though, once the dog has a lot of drive and bird-love, you can start preventing chasing, it can turn into a bad habit. One of the reasons I feel that competing a dog in US field trial derby competition (where they are allowed to chase until age 2) is almost always a deteriment to the dog in the long run.
Anne

[Ingvild]

Hi!
In some ways I guess you can call the flushing of the bird as a "short chase", but the dog has to sit when the bird takes to it's wings. When they flush the dog is actually trying to catch the bird so it will have much of the same effect as allowing them to chase.

Electric collars are very controversial here in Norway and are illegal for this kind of use, so that is not an option. I'm not sure how it is in the rest of Europe.

[Alkemist]

Ingvild that is one of the most impressive things that I have ever seen a Weim do. It's almost like a switch was flicked and Atlas froze! Thanks for sharing

Nina and Jensen

[anne]

This is so fascinating to me. I had no idea about electric collars being illegal for this use in other countries! It's such a great tool, but a very dangerous tool if used incorrectly. I have seen dogs react very poorly to long lines because some trainers will let the dog chase and then run to the end of the line and get flipped over or severely yanked on the lead. I have also seen people use the electric collar badly too. So I guess what i'm saying is that I think any tool can be used inappropriately... I sure am glad to have a choice in the matter. My Indy was trained to stop on a tap on the electric collar. It is the same as a "whoa" or "stand-stay" command. Not used to hurt. It's a way that I have to control or give a command when she is far away from me.

Here, it is a "bad thing" (for no real good reason, really) for the dog to sit or stand after it's established point.

Oh one more thing, I don't know about other places, but here in the US, I think that Weims have less pointing instinct and strong retrieving instinct... another reason to prevent too much chasing.

[Irena]

Thank you guys for the comments, very very much. Audry does point, and it's beautiful when she does, but I'm just wondering when she will be able to overcome the puppy in her and get serious about it. That is why I wondered about trying it in shorter grass, so that there are less distractions and she can really focus on the bird (that way she would hopefully catch the smell sooner and connect it with the idea of searching and successfully finding something interesting?) I think this Saturday I will try her on leash and off leash, and see what works better.
Thanks again for the thoughts, they are greatly appreciated!

[smokeybear]

The Kennel Club in the UK along with other organisations are trying to pass a bill through parliament to ban electric collars over here, hopefully they will succeed.

There is no need to use an electric collar on a dog if you have carefully and slowly prepared your dog, for any discipline.

I would not like to use one on any of my dogs that is for sure.

Neither have I found the need to put on a long line for this.

I encourage my dogs to exert self control from the moment I get them so that they can gradually be exposed to more and more exciting things without "losing it", personally I find that more satisfactory and rewarding. Once self control is demonstrated next to me I gradually increase the "sphere of control" so that the dog is responsive 500 metres away, because it has become a conditioned response, not because it fears being punished.

I am glad that I have chosen not to use it and I expect my dogs are too!

It may be slower, but is very effective.

[Ingvild]

anne said:

This is so fascinating to me. I had no idea about electric collars being illegal for this use in other countries! It's such a great tool, but a very dangerous tool if used incorrectly. I have seen dogs react very poorly to long lines because some trainers will let the dog chase and then run to the end of the line and get flipped over or severely yanked on the lead. I have also seen people use the electric collar badly too. So I guess what i'm saying is that I think any tool can be used inappropriately... I sure am glad to have a choice in the matter. My Indy was trained to stop on a tap on the electric collar. It is the same as a "whoa" or "stand-stay" command. Not used to hurt. It's a way that I have to control or give a command when she is far away from me.

Here, it is a "bad thing" (for no real good reason, really) for the dog to sit or stand after it's established point.

Oh one more thing, I don't know about other places, but here in the US, I think that Weims have less pointing instinct and strong retrieving instinct... another reason to prevent too much chasing.

You are right that long leads can be used the wrong way and inflict pain (that's why I wrote "gently" in my first post about it). But used the right way they are a gentel method.
Smokeybear: The long lead is there simply because we don't want to allow the dog to "fail" (in other words chase). In my experience a dog that first has got the taste of chasing (after it has flushed the bird) is very hard to stop. I train "sit" or "stop" (the command the dog is given after he has flushed the bird) in all kind of situations (when a cat comes running by, when I throw a ball etc), but with bird in the picture it is a whole different thing and I'm not willing to take the chance on the dog "failing" the first times it is working. I've seen the most well behaved youngster "run to the next county" the first time they encounter a bird
If you do not use a long lead how do you train?

[smokeybear]

AS I said, by starting with close proximity.

I don't allow my dogs to "fail" either.

Whenever I train a behaviour I use the 4 "Ds", distance, duration, distraction and difficulty.

Once I have a behaviour reliable at a close distance, I then gradually increase it. Once that is solid I introduce duration, but go back to the beginning with distance; I only want to train one criteria at a time. Once I have distance and duration I will then introduce distraction again going back to being beside the dog, and reducing the duration.

Eventually I will then increase difficulty by putting these together.

Because I require an extremely high standard from my dog, like a building, I spend a HUGE amount of time on building extremely strong foundations so that the behaviour does not fall apart when under stress ie competition.

I spend more time on very simple, essential behaviours than a lot of people I know but I take the long view, I want a dog that completely understands what I want and I want to reduce any possibility of confusion so that it never gets stressed or worried.

For example if the dog fully understands the commands you have taught and you have built up the criteria and excitement level very slowly it will never chase because it will always be listening.

All my training is done completely hands off so that a lead/collar does not become a crutch for me, or a discriminative stimuli for the dog.

[marjolein]

One small difference between what you're doing, and what we're doing, is the fact that a dog is always balancing between being obedient and being disobedient. Only this way, a dog will hunt the best he can.

[Ingvild]

smokeybear said:

AS I said, by starting with close proximity.

I don't allow my dogs to "fail" either.

Whenever I train a behaviour I use the 4 "Ds", distance, duration, distraction and difficulty.

Once I have a behaviour reliable at a close distance, I then gradually increase it. Once that is solid I introduce duration, but go back to the beginning with distance; I only want to train one criteria at a time. Once I have distance and duration I will then introduce distraction again going back to being beside the dog, and reducing the duration.

Eventually I will then increase difficulty by putting these together.

Because I require an extremely high standard from my dog, like a building, I spend a HUGE amount of time on building extremely strong foundations so that the behaviour does not fall apart when under stress ie competition.

I spend more time on very simple, essential behaviours than a lot of people I know but I take the long view, I want a dog that completely understands what I want and I want to reduce any possibility of confusion so that it never gets stressed or worried.

For example if the dog fully understands the commands you have taught and you have built up the criteria and excitement level very slowly it will never chase because it will always be listening.

All my training is done completely hands off so that a lead/collar does not become a crutch for me, or a discriminative stimuli for the dog.

It sounds like you train allot like I do, but I guess you are better at it I've never managed to train a dog in bird situations without using a collar or a lead as a safety net (and I have needed that safety net a few times). Very impressive!

PS Forgot to say Thanks to Nina and Jensen

[smokeybear]

I disagree Marj, how can a hunting dog be "disobedient"?

I do not understand your comment Mar, either it is hunting, which is what you want, or it is not which is what you do not want.

It is either pointing or not, it is either flushing or not and it is either retrieving or not.

Why must it be "disobedient"?

ps Mar, my dogs do point and flush on command but they do not chase.

If and when I get my 2nd CC I will start doing field trials.

[Ingvild]

I know the last comment was not made to me, but..
I must say I see what Marjolein means. A totally "obedient" (in lack of a better word) dog will often not be very independent. They have a tendency to keep to much contact with their owner to see what the owner wants. Excessive contact will often lead to the dog having a poor range.

[smokeybear]

Perhaps, that has not been my personal experience, however.

Perhaps this is a language thing?

I think what you MIGHT mean is that OBEDIENCE trained dogs are very dependant on their owners for commands etc as they are not encouraged to use their initiative.

There is a world of difference between an OBEDIENCE dog and an OBEDIENT dog, the two are not necessarily the same!

I have an obedient dog that has a lot of initiative which it is encouraged and allowed to use where appropriate, ie hunting and tracking.

It is not allowed to do use this initiative in other areas.

Does that sound logical?