FC - AFC

[Kobie]

I would like to know what a dog needs to do to become Field Champion or Amateur Field Champion !
I see sometimes the titles on pedigrees, and I always wonder what these titles exactelly contains....

[marjolein]

All I know of is the national or international CACT/CACIT. Is that what you mean?

[daniela]

Hi

Here are the links from the AKC website:

www.akc.org/events/FCtitle.cfm

www.akc.org/events/AFCtitle.cfm

[Kobie]

Very interesting links, thanks !

But what I really would like to know is how the level is in these trials !

As some members know, it's almost impossible to become in Belgium or the Netherlands field Champion. In Belgium , field trails are open for all pointing breeds, like for example German short,- rough and longhair, Tsech Fousek, Epagneul Breton, ect.ect.
All these breeds runs wider than our breed do. Actually, there is not much chance to win ever a CACT for that matter.

I see that in America they counts points to become Ch. Here in our arias, only qualifications counts. So you need at least placement 1 Excellent -CACT twice to become Ch. (1 EXC. doesn't mean automatically CACT)
We have also a advanced hunter diploma, but it doesn't count to become hunt ch.
This certificate contains retrieving, obedience, lost apport, tracking, ect.ect.....

How high is the difference of the levels between European and US field trials

As I see to become FC there are 10 points needed at 3 different trials, I guess a couple of dogs of our members would be FC too, if they were living in the US

[anne]

Oh I missed this post!

I don't know if it's as easy as you think, although it's probably easier than in other countries because you can enter your dog in Weim-only stakes. Bur for point of reference, in 2004 in the US, over 200 Weimaraners became show champions. Only 8 became field champions.

It is on a point system as you read. 10 points have to be earned to get a FC title. Field trials are a competition, not based on judgement against a standard like hunt tests, so you must beat your competition to win points. Points are based on the number of dogs defeated. For instance, 1 point for 4 to 7 competitors, 2 for 8-12, and so on. However 1 win must be a major which means a win of 3 or more points (5 is the maximum). The stakes are divided up into juvenile stakes and broke dog stakes. The juvenile stakes are Puppy and Derby. Only 2 points from each of those can apply to the championship title.

Puppies are from 6-15 months and derbies are 6-24 months. They are being judged for their future potential. The other stakes offered (broke dog stakes) are usually GUn Dog any dog 6 moths or older can compete and the dog must be steady to wing and shot in addition to showing good hunting and so on. Limited Gun Dog is for any dog 6 monts or older who has field trial placements. All Age is also for any dog 6 months or older. They are looking for a wider ranging dog in all age.

Many Weimaraner clubs that sponsor trials will close some stakes to Weimaraners only. But there are some great dogs here that have won over other breeds like GSPs. In fact, TJ (NAFC FC NFC Gould's Jus Call Me TJ) won all her points in all-breed trials! Her daughter Chular (my Pixy's mother) recently won an all-breed Open Limited stake of over 25 dogs. However, Weims that are competitive at an all breed level is rare.

Also 4 of the 10 points must be retrieving stakes. IN other words they must be won in a stake where they must demonstrate retrieving ability. Non-retrieve stakes are set up so the birds are not shot. Puppy and derby stakes also are non-retrieving. Also for Weims, they must pass a water test (or a WCA retrieving ratings test where they test for water retrieve will substitute) in order to get the FC title.

AFC is pretty much the same thing except the competition is closed to Amateur handlers. 4 points gained towards the AFC may apply to the FC title, but not the other way around. (Riley would have his AFC done by now if that were the case, even though he has been amateur/owner handled to wins in Open stakes.)

The NFC and NAFC titles that you see sometimes are granted when a dog wins a National Field Championship which is held every December in Ardmore Oklahoma. The win will count towards the championship points, but many of the dogs competing at this level already have their field championships.

ALso in large stakes you can sometimes get a point for a 2nd place.

Separately, the WCA calculates on a point system wins as well as placements (1st to 4th are given) to calculate a Top 10 list. Therefore dogs that are consistent placers but not necessarily winning can make the top 10 list.

That's about it in a nutshell. (I'm sure I probably forgot something)

Oh yeah.. most people handle in field trials off of horseback but walking is allowed. Sometimes a specific walking stake is offered, or sometimes a whole field trial is walking only.

We also have hunt tests which are not competition but judged against a standard and usually you have to pass the given test 4 or 5 times in order to gain the title. These are JH, SH and MH (Junior, Senior and Master Hunter). They are all done on foot.

[anne]

Oh one other thing that I didn't mention.

FIeld trial judges usually have no problem withholding placements if they didn't think that the dogs were up to par. Last fall at one of our trials for example there was a large all age stake, over 30 dogs and the judges withheld all placements. Or sometiems you will see them give a win and withhold the rest of the placements or withhold 1st and give the rest, or whatever. No one ever bats an eyelash.

Now it can happen at shows too, but it rarely does and it's big news and shocking if it does happen.

This happens in field trials ALL THE TIME.

[chiendog]

Warning! A bit of a rant coming up....

I mean no insult to anyone or anyone's dog. What follows are my personal observations and opinions on the breed in general, not a reflection of any individual dog.

I have heard people claim that it is very difficult for a weimaraner to win trials in Europe and I do not doubt them. The competition is fierce and I am sure there is some truth to the assertion that certain judges simply do not like the breed. A good friend of mine has done well in trials in France with his Weimaraners but he is the exception.

However, I would like to point out that the majority of weim breeders outside of Germany and Austria do not base their selection on performance. Rather, they breed dogs mainly for the show ring and hope that the dog can perform well enough in the field to get through a low level hunt test. Furthermore, most Weimaraner owners are not hunters and do not really know what a hunting dog should be able to do.

The "other breeds run further and faster" line is often used to explain why Weims do not win trials. I have also seen people state that "Weimaraners hunt in a completely different way than German Shorthairs etc."

I believe that there is very little justification for these attitudes. Range and speed are important factors in trials but they are not the only factors. Just because a dog runs far and fast does not automatically guarantee a win. It is my opinion that there are very few Weimaraners in the winners circle because most Weimaranars are mediocre hunters at best. It is not that they hunt or run differently, it is because they do not hunt or run very well.

A good working weimaraner may not be quite as fast or far ranging as some other breeds, but the difference should be rather small. If a GSP runs at a full sprint out to 150 metres then a Weimaraner should run nearly as fast and almost as far ( I know a some that run just as fast and far). The difference at most would be in the 10 -20% range.

What usually happens though is that most dogs in a trial are out there really hunting hard, with passion, drive and intensity at whatever the normal range for that type of trial is (in France for example, continental breeds should run about 80 to 100 yards to each side).

And then a Weimaraner is presented. A good one will look alot like the other dogs, RUNNING hard with the same determination and drive as the others. Maybe it will cover (a little) less ground in each cast, and maybe the head will be somewhat lower while running, but there should be no mistake that this dog is out to find game and NEEDS to find it NOW.

More often than not however, a Weim is presented and what we see is a pale reflection of what should be happening. The dog trots here and there, pausing occasionally to piss on a plant or sniff at at mouse hole. If it stumbles across game, it may or may not point and if it does, there is little intensity. Range is never more than 20 or 30 yards despite the handler's urging the dog on. I hate to admit it ( I am after all a weim lover) but some of the worst dogs I have ever seen in the field were Weimaraners. Watching them "hunt" was painful. They were absolutely terrible. Yet in their owner's eyes, they were hunting in the "Weimaraner style".

Bullshit! They were hunting no better than my sister's tea-cup poodle. In fact, they were not hunting, they were out for a stroll wondering when they were going home so they could get back to that nap they were having.

It in no wonder that these types of dogs do not win trials. It is not because "weims don't run as far". The good ones certainly do. It is not because the weim is a "slower worker". Again, the good ones work with speed and drive...maybe not as quickly as a brittany or gsp but certainly at an intense gallop....not a lazy trot.

Maybe it is hard for the owner of such a dog to see just how poorly the dog does compared to other dogs. Maybe justifying the performance on the old "Weims are different" attitude helps the unease. But to an experienced hunter or field trial judge there is no illusion. The dog is crap (excuse my French) and should not be considered for the winners' circle. On the other hand, a good dog is a good dog no matter what colour it is. So if a grey dog enters a trial and runs with speed and style and points with intensity and stays steady etc. etc. then it deserves the top prize.

Most Weimaraners do not win trials because they are competing against dogs that have been selected for athletic performance in keeping with the original purpose of the breed. Those dogs have been selected by hunters and field trialers for just this purpose. Weims on the other hand are typically selected for their appearance by people that do not hunt and do not realize what a hunting dog should be able to do. The few Wemaraners that are selected for performance can compete with any other breed. They run and hunt and point and swim and retrieve very well. But they are the exception.

I am sorry what I have written sounds harsh. I believe that we should be honest. If the Weimaraner is ever to improve as a hunting breed we need to move beyond the attitude of "weims are so different" and get to work on selecting dogs that can compete honestly with the best of the best. We do not need to lose those endearing traits of the breed that we love so much, nor should we lose all traces of the weimaraner style. But we need to realize that a hunting dog, no matter what the breed, is like a high performance sports car ....not a minivan with bald tires and an empty gas tank.

Of course, that is just my opinion....I could be drunk.

[marjolein]

Chiendog, I am afraid I have to agree with you on this one. Yes, there are good Weimaraners in the field and the level in FT is definately higher in Holland than on the German tests. But too many dogs on Dutch FT's don't have a clue what they're doing. Shame, but it's a results of breeding for good looks only, while it should be a combination of these two.

But on the other hand, I'm not too impressed as such by the level of field work in Germany. Daan performed not too well at that level in Germany, at least, that was my point of view. The Germans though thought it was fantastic what they saw and gave me high notes (11 for searching and pointing). Makes you think......
My older bitch is even faster and ranges even wider. Wonder what they would've said about her.

When we look at the description of the breed, that says a Weim should hunt within range of the gun. My dogs take more field than that. That's not how our breed is supposed to work, so what do we think about that???

If you ask me, I think it's good to have these dogs every now and then, so we can give the breed a boost on speed and stamina. Something a lot of Weims lack in nowadays.

[chiendog]

Marjolein,

I have seen German and Austrian tests and agree that the judging for field work is different (easier?) than elsewhere. I believe it is because the German tests are desingned to identify breeding stock and natural ability. They are non competative tests where the judges want to see what is in the dog and then make an assesment of what it has the potential to bring to the breed. So they are more likely to overlook certain things that would not be acceptable at a trial since it is not necessarily the single performance the dog shows on that day but rather what indications the dog gave of being a good hunter likely to pass on good things to the offspring. A trial on the other hand is all about the performance on that day. Judges do not take anything else into account. Any slip-up and the dog is out. But the dog can come back again the next day to see if it can do better. In Germany you only get one or two chances at a test so the judges really try to see everything they can during the test from a breeding point of view and not as much from a "perfect performance" point of view

There is also an evolution in tastes going on in Germany that is similar to other areas, although at a much more moderate pace. The "old guard' that preferes bigger, slower, closer working dogs, is giving way, slowly, to people that prefer dogs with a bit more speed and range. In my experience among the 30 or so LH weims I saw hunting in Germany, about half worked rather close and at a moderate pace because it was their natural way or working, the other half worked rather close and at a moderate pace becuase they were trained to work that way. If they had the chance, they would certainly run much wider and very fast. The key for us is to find the dogs that will naturally want to run fast and wide and then let them do it!

Many breeds are supposed to work "under the gun" or "to the gun". In my opinion this does not have to mean "within the range that a gun can shoot" about 35 to 40 meters. Rather, it can be interpreted as meaning hunting within the range of the gunner. That is to say, keeping in a comfortable range that the gun can easily be brought to bear on game. The Weimaraner after all is a pointing breed. As such, its great advantage over a flushing breed like a springer or cocker, is the ability to go beyond the 30 to 40 yard limit that a flusher must work within. A pointing dog's job is to find game and to hold it for as long as it takes for the hunter to arrive.

I have one bitch that works very well "to the gun" In wide open areas she realizes that my abilty to get to her (to "serve her" on point as the French would say) is limited to about 200 to 250 yards. Beyond that it is hard to find her and to get to her in time. In the forest she must stay much closer 30 to 50 yards since that is about the limit I can hear her bell. In my opinion she is hunting for the gun....which is me.

[Kobie]

Marjolein,

You are right, weims hunt close to their handlers, but in our country, if a weim does hunt close, he is disqualified.

As you probably know, all breeds in one field trial and gaining 1st place is exceptional !!! Even a qualification is hard .....

Bill won 1 time, 1st place 'very good', field trial all breeds...... 4 times 2nd place (very good and good).....

2005, only 2 weims qualified in field trials in Belgium.....
What a poor result !!!

[Kobie]

Actually, I have a short movie of Bill's drive, but I don't know how to post it

[Kobie]

Ann,

Can you explande what a dog needs to do to become the title of
JH
SH
MH

This information would be great to know.....

[chiendog]

Kobie,

Congratulations on Bill's wins and placements. You should be proud of him!

When you say "hunt close to the handler" how close do you mean? When running in open fields, not in dense woods, how far to each side do the Weims you see running go? (in meters)

In 'continental" trials in France, dogs should normally run up to 80 meters or so one either side (although many run much further). The Czech working standard for the weim also mentions 80 meters or so. In Germany, most hunters perfer their dogs stay to about 50 meters since there is usually another hunter and dog 50 meters away. The dogs I hunted with in Germany ran from 30 to 75 meters in general but I could see that a few of them wanted to run further (their handlers prevented this)

Here in North America, there really is no limit to where a pointing dog should run. However, for most Weimaraners (bred for the field) I would say they usually hunt out to about 100 meters (we do not insist that they hunt from side to side, we prefer them to hunt in front and towards likely cover). Some dogs run much wider. I have two Weims. One usually runs from 75 to 150 meters and the other from 75 to 300 meters in wide open spaces. I have never done anything to try to modify their search. I just let them go. We have a lot of room here and almost no hunters so the dogs eventually learn to run quite far.

My friend has a LH import from Germany. It runs fairly wide....say 50 to 150 meters. Again, we encourage this. We want a dog to cover a lot of ground. In Germany they would frown on this a bit I am sure.

[Kobie]

Chiendog,

hunt close is about 50-100 meters, running wide should be around 200 meters or more, like you said.

But we do not have here wide fields, we live in a very small country.....

I'm a little mixed up
Do you live in the US or France

[anne]

<<More often than not however, a Weim is presented and what we see is a pale reflection of what should be happening. The dog trots here and there, pausing occasionally to piss on a plant or sniff at at mouse hole. If it stumbles across game, it may or may not point and if it does, there is little intensity. Range is never more than 20 or 30 yards despite the handler's urging the dog on. I hate to admit it ( I am after all a weim lover) but some of the worst dogs I have ever seen in the field were Weimaraners. Watching them "hunt" was painful. They were absolutely terrible. Yet in their owner's eyes, they were hunting in the "Weimaraner style". >>

OMG I couldn't agree more! I arranged the ratings test at last years National Specialty and saw a large range of dogs across the country competing in shooting and retrieving ratings and I was apalled at what I saw in the group as a whole. The shooting retrieving was judged by the Outdoors breeders and when they failed a few NSD dogs, the owners were actually arguing with them! One said that they didn't knwo what they were looking at (Can you beleive THAT?) and that her dog could be a MH. She thought that just because her dog happened to stumble on a bird and point it that that was passable for a NSD! The dog was not hunting, and my observation was across the board that most were this way, except for the dogs that has at least one FC parent.

The retrieving ratings showed the same problems. Many dogs didn't have the drive to do double retrieves, never mind a blind retrieve.

Anyway, what i saw there was the most discouraging thing ever.

Even my Blue Weim would have out hunted MANY of those dogs. Yes she her range is too short to be FT competitive, but she HUNTS.

We've actually been very tempted to get a Drat since we have seen many we like, but our first love is for Weims and I doubt we'd ever go that way.

[anne]

www.akc.org/rules/hunting_pointing_breeds.cfm?page=5

Chapter 4: Standards for Junior, Senior and Master Hunting Tests

Section 1. Junior Hunting Test.
A Junior hunting dog must show a keen desire to hunt, be bold and independent, have a fast, yet attractive, manner of hunting, and demonstrate not only intelligence in seeking objectives, but also the ability to find game. A Junior hunting dog must establish point, but no additional credit shall be given for steadiness to wing and shot. If the handler is within reasonable gun range of a bird which has been flushed after a point, a blank cartridge must be fired by the handler. Junior hunting dogs must hold point until the handler gets within normal gunshot range. Junior hunting dogs must also show reasonable obedience to their handler's commands.

Section 2. Senior Hunting Test.
A Senior hunting dog must show all of the attributes of a Junior hunting dog. In addition, the dog must be steady to wing and must remain in position until the shot or they are released. A Senior hunting dog must retrieve. Whenever it encounters its bracemate on point, it must honor. A dog that steals its bracemate's point cannot receive a Qualifying score.

Section 3. Master Hunting Test.
A Master hunting dog must give a finished performance and demonstrate clearly that it deserves to be qualified as such. This is the complete hunting companion that any hunter would be proud to own. It must be under its handler's control at all times, and handle kindly, with an absolute minimum of noise and hacking by the handler. A Master hunting dog must show a keen desire to hunt, must have a bold and attractive manner of running, and must demonstrate not only intelligence in seeking objectives, but also the ability to find game. The dog must hunt for its handler at all times at a range suitable for a handler on foot, and should show or check in front of its handler frequently. It must cover adequate ground but never range out-of-sight for a length of time that would detract from its usefulness as a practical hunting companion. The dog must locate game, must point staunchly, and must be steady to wing and shot on all birds and if it breaks, it cannot receive a Qualifying score. Intelligent use of the wind and terrain in locating game, accurate nose, and intensity on point are essential. Whenever it encounters its bracemate on point, it must honor. A dog that steals its bracemate's point cannot receive a Qualifying score.

A Master hunting dog must positively demonstrate its steadiness to wing and shot. The handler shall not command or signal the dog to retrieve until positive steadiness has been demonstrated. The dog must retrieve promptly, tenderly and absolutely to hand.

[Kobie]

My English sometimes not reaches so far, but I understand the main things you discussed....

Here at field trial, a dog can be qualified if he runs wide, if he points nicely to wild game (not hares) and he should be hare free !! Meaning, not running after hares. Once he is out of hand, you can leave the competitions....
We also don't have on each field game.... If there is no game, bad luck.....
Only the best dogs can find them proparely, point nicely and is steady at shot. The dog may not run after the game as well.
If all these factors are pleased, you get normally a score (CQN, Good, Very Good, Exc. , CACT)
Very few weims ever got Exc. (or if they did, they knew the judge...)
Never ever seen a weim get Excellent when he was worthed.....

[daniela]

Yes, there are good Weimaraners in the field and the level in FT is definately higher in Holland than on the German tests. But too many dogs on Dutch FT's don't have a clue what they're doing. Shame, but it's a results of breeding for good looks only, while it should be a combination of these two.

Is it really a case of the dogs not having a clue, or the owners not knowing how to nurture their instinct?

[Kobie]

Is it really a case of the dogs not having a clue, or the owners not knowing how to nuture their instinct?[/quote]


My opinion is that you see on a dog if there are huntingabilities or not.

We went walking with Bill as pup, and he naturally pointed on game.
I also know weimies who don't notice game during their walks.
This is the main thing, to see if your weimie has something in her genes ;D ;D ;D

[marjolein]

kobie said:

Marjolein,

You are right, weims hunt close to their handlers, but in our country, if a weim does hunt close, he is disqualified.

I know that Kobie. Mine are hunting like Bill. Unfortunately, they're and exception these days.