Retriever training

[Landlord]

What sort of retrieve training do you do and how often? Now that our shooting season has come to an end for this year, I want to concentrate on retrieving and directional control as I have got the hunting sorted! What good exercises do people like to do and how often and how long?

[anne]

I think Weims have very strong retrieve instinct. All of our training pretty much revolves around play training. My dogs do know directional signals but that was never formally taught, partially it's a trust thing that is built between handler and dog.

[aktyson]

You didn't say what level your dog is currently working for retrieving but one game I love to play to teach directional work is the "baseball diamond" game. Imagine a baseball diamond (very small to begin with) and set your dog at the pitchers mound. Put paper plates out for the three bases (again, at first these should be close to the dog). You stand at home plate. Set a cookie on one plate (at first its OK for your dog to know which plate the cookie is on) and then return to home plate. Give your dog the arm signal and fetch command at the same time. Since the dog knows where the cookie is this should be a very fun and successful game. If the dog does run to an incorrect base all you have to do is run to the correct base and take the cookie so he can't be rewarded for "shopping" the bases. I recommend doing about twice the repetitions on the back command (2nd base) as it seems to be the most sticky when the dog gets to higher levels. Gradually move the 'bases' and home plate futher from the dog until he is very confident with all the commands. Then start to "hide" the cookie by either having a helper hide the dogs eyes or by walking to each base and pretending to set a cookie on all of them.

Once the dog is very good on land I move to the water for a different game. I send the dog in on a swim command and then after they have swum maybe 25 yards I give them a directional. When they have committed to the direction I throw a frisbee directly in their path as a reward. Again, I do at least double the repetions with the back command than right or left. I also alternate this with not giving them a second command and just tossing the frisbee ahead of them as a reward for committing well to the swim command.

Another game with frisbees is to have two of them and send you dog on a regular marked retieve for one. While they are running (or swimming) out for the first one toss the second one in a different direction. When they come in, send them on a blind retrieve for the second one. Only give them directionals if they go off mark. If they are on line then let them go and again throw the first frisbee in a new direction.

Anne

[ralph]

Directionals
First of all, without being pedantic, let me give a warning about directionals. If you train directionals to often or with to much pressure on the dog, you could end up with a dog whose independence is totally destroyed.
And by independence in this context I mean, the capability to solve (very) difficult situations by himself, for example multiple blind retrieves. You could end up with a dog always asking for help (i.e. a directional command for that matter).

The baseball diamond game in Anne’s Posting is one method I use a lot, but in stead of cookies I use dummy’s or dead fowl. Although I’m a fan of positive reinforcement, I’m not a fan of cookies when training directionals. I want the retrieve in it self to be the ultimate reward. I have seen to many dogs which didn,t retrieve properly when given an directional command, they where franticly lookin for that damn cookie. Mind you, it can be done properly on cookies but the difficult point will be when and how will you leave the cookies out. I just think it’s easier with dummy’s, that’s all. Keep in mind that you have to use the biggest reward imaginabele and that will differ per dog, if the biggest reward consists of cookies, use them, but work them out of your exercise as soon as possible. Keep in mind , whats a directional command without a retrieve, just another circusact in my opinion. Anyway it will not surprise you when I tell you that I’m not starting directional commands before the dog retrieves properly.

However, before I begin with baseball diamonds, I’ll teach my dogs the directional commands first. One at a time that is. Left and right and straight forward first (starting point , dog besides me) and then the toughest one the back command.
To accomplish this I use something I call “directing poles”, it’s just a pole of white plastic, about a foot high. Stick it in the ground, the reward you’re using goes next to the pole. Let’s say I want de dog to the left. I place the dog on the right side of the pole. I put myself in front of the dog, stick my left arm out and say “to the left”. Triggered by my hand-signal and the high visibility of the white pole, the dog will go to the left (in the beginning just out of curiosity). At the pole he finds his reward (retrieve in my case). In the beginning, when the dog arrives at the pole he gets an extra command (fetch) or a “territorium whistle”. (which means, here’s something to retrieve). Dog retrieves, PARTYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.
OK, to make a long story not any longer, when you think the dog understands the separate directional commands, you have to test him. A test does not have to be hard, i’ll probably use a test like his:
I place the dog in the middle of a field, give him the “stay” command. Walk away from the dog and I place one dummy on the left side of the dog and one on the right side. Important is that the dog can clearly see you placing the dummy’s.
Back to the dog, stand in front of hem and give him the directional command, say to the left.
When the dog fetches the left dummy without hesitation (and in a straight line!!!!), he passed the test and is ready for more difficult assignments without directing poles

Hand-signals, bodylanguage, clothing and whistles.

Hand-signals are best kept simple. I use three of them but I use them always in the same movement. My hand-signals are always coming from the hart. Wow that’s a weird sentence.
When I’m directing I stand like a tree in the ground, nothing moves, my hands are folded on my chest, elbows hanging down, whistle in my mouth.
When the dog must go to the left, I’ll attract it’s attention by a short whistle and whammm my left arm shoots straight out. Back signal?, whammm my arm shoots straight up. My arm is the only thing that moves, and I want my arm to be the only visible signal for the dog.. I’ve seen people making complete raindances when directing their dogs, which are, at least in my opinion, not necessary. The raindances people perform are very very entertaining for us but for the dog they are confusing. I’ll tell you why. Dogs eyesight isn’t much better then ours but they can detect movement far better then we do. I’ll give you an example of how the raindances can go wrong.

Once up on a time there lived a woman with a top dog. He was really a top dog but he had one problem, she could not direct the dog when the distance between her and the dog became more then 50 meters. At 49 meters the dog was fantastic at the directionals. The woman thought the dog gave her the finger beyond that range of 50 meter. What did we do to solve this problem.
To begin with, this was a “raindance” woman, when she was directing her dog everything moved and when I say everything I mean everything. Legs, arms, fingers, head, shoelaces, ti..sorry, everything. Ok, we analysed her movement, whats your directional command “to the left”? The woman moved her whole body to the left, everything was flapping around. You could subdivide her movement “to the left” by roughly 4 movements. Left leg, left arm, upperbody and her head was noddin’ to the left. We asked her if she could direct her dog at a distance 0f 5 meters, ofcours she answered a bit grumpy. We told her to do one movement at a time.
She stood before her dog and stuck her leg out….nothing, stuck her arm out….nothing, upperbody…..nothing, little tiny nod with the head. Whammm there the dog went.
Moral of the story, at 49 meters the dog could see the movement of her head and was directable, at 50+ meters he didn’t saw the movement anymore, He didn’t gave her any finger at all…, back to the basics, problem solved.

Dogs are so into bodylanguage that you never know what his trigger is when you teach him directionals, so stand there like a massive tree in the ground and just move your arms . Even then, dont flap your arms around’, you’re not a bird. Concentrate on keeping you’re movements stern.

Clothing.
I really believe clothing can play an important role in directionals. I’ve already written that a dog’s eyesight isn’t much better then ours (in normal circumstances that is). Imagine your looking at a green guy against a green background. Hard to see isn’t it? Or a white guy against a bright sky, same thing isn’t it ?
Well I know some people who will take a whole wardrope into the fields. Dark clothing against a light background and light clothing against a dark background. What do you think of people waving with handkerchiefs or complete national flags. There’s some truth in it though, but I think it’s slightly exaggerated. When I look at them I think something like “buy some glasses for your dog”.
No, without kiddin around, there is some truth in it. Against a dark background I just roll up my sleeves. And again, the dog sees the movement of my arm much better then a human will.
Oh eeeeh and keep everthing else buttoned up, the less extra movement the better it is.

Whistles
A story apart, I know a guy who is directing his dog just with wistles. I know, it doesn’t make much difference, it’s just that I have no experience with that so I shall not write anything about it. Although I use two different whistle sounds when I’m training directionals, no1, short burst = PAY attention, there’s a change of direction at hand. No2: short burst on a referee wistle = stop immediately and sit on your bum.

Ok if you’ve reached this sentence and you’ve not fallen asleep, I hope you enjoyed my writing. And again it’s not meant to be pedantic, just the way I think about some aspects. I also hope my englisch is good enough to ensure that I mean what I write,or write what I think or whatevr…….. Sometimes it is difficult to verbalize what you mean, especially in a foreign language. (fishing for a compliment here)

Last but not least a raindance picture of me, everything is wrong in this picture, it’s a wonder the dog understood what I meant. She’s a very very smart dog you know. (sometimes too smart for me)


gr.Ralph

[marjolein]

Impressive article Ralph, well done!!!!!!

[mike]

Nice post Ralph

Funny you've described the "raindance" and it's the way we British are taught to do it!! You way makes lots more sense though!

Funny thing is you are the second or third person who has said that the back is harder than left and right, Harley understands back and not left or right!!

[mike]

Nice post Ralph

Funny you've described the "raindance" and it's the way we British are taught to do it!! Your way makes lots more sense though, yet again I am going to end up doing things a bit differently from everyone else

Funny thing is you are the second or third person who has said that the back is harder than left and right, Harley understands back and we are struggling with left or right!! I think I need to try your method with the poles.

Well done with your English, it's probably makes more sense than mine!! ;D

[ralph]

Marjolein.....thank you very much, i can make it much more extensive, but it is a forum, not a book.
Mike try the poles, i'm convinced they will do the job for you, and thank you for the linguistic compliments, with articles of this extent i'm really struggling you know. Not that i don't know the words, but it has to be written in such a way, that my words only have one meaning. And here we have my problem, sometimes i don't know if it will be understood in the right way.

gr. ralph

[jossan]

Well done Ralph!

I liked what you wrote, never tried with the poles, but mabye I will. The baseball diamond I use to train Spirit with, but here in Sweden we call it The clock.

[Landlord]

All, thanks for your replies, especially Ralph. That made a lot of sense. I am working on the back at the moment. Sometimes he gets it sometimes he doesn't. I will then work on the left and right and then see how we go from there.

[ralph]

Ok let’s talk about the back command. First you have to ask yourself, “why doesn’t the dog gets it sometimes”. Is he being naughty, or is there something else

Let me tell you how I teach the “back”command to my dogs. I know, I known, can hear you all moaning “there goes that damn smarty-pants again”. Eeeeeeh, yes he does, here we go. again…………….

In my opinion there are two things the dog must master before you can speak about a solid back command. I shall try to explain why and how to tell your dog whats expected from him.
First of all I don’t think in commands but I think in directions. Ask yourself the question, which way do I want the dog to go. Back command, you want the dog, generally spoken, away from you. Ok, away……in a straight line? Yes, preferable in a straight line. Realizing that, you get stuck with two scenarios or better said two starting positions of the dog.
1 Dog sits besides you, the mug facing the same direction as yours
2 Dog sits in front of you mug facing opposite of yours ((i.e. you’re looking at each other)this is the position where the actual back command starts, isn’t it? )
To begin with, the dog has to master No1 before I even start thinking about No2.
If you’ve the time and courage to read on, I tell you why.

No. 1
Dog sits besides you, the mug facing the same direction as yours. Main objective here is the dog running away from you, fast and in a straight line. How do you achieve this, you need several things in a relative controlled surrounding so the dog is not able to make to much mistakes (has something to do with self-rewarding behaviour (something you could write endless toppings about)).
Things you’ll need:
A. Something like a narrow trail in the field, with preferably something like a fence at both sides of the trial
B. Someone who helps you
C. Directing pole, described in my initial posting
D. Rewards like a dummy or dead fowl (remember that I for one want the retrieve the best reward, but you always have to use the biggest reward possible, for the dog that is)
E. Body-language and luckily we humans don’t have a shortage of it.
F. A dog.
Well let me finally talk you through the exercise then.
Assuming you’ve found your narrow trail in the middle of nowhere. Place the directing pole several yards up the road. The second person, you’re helper stays with the reward (let’s say a dummy) at the pole. Second thing you do is get your dog and let him sit besides you, tell hem to stay, no matter what, if necessary he stays on leash.
Third step is the helper making a funny sound throwing the dummy next to the directing pole. If the dog sits on your left side, you’re left hand goes above his head, like you’re shaking someones hand but you keep the hand motionless. You’re little finger almost touches the middle of the skull and when the dog is looking up, he is just able to see the tip of you’re little finger. Hold that position until the dog is relaxed. And only then you give him the command to fetch the dummy.. Triggerd by the high visibility and the upcoming reward, the dog will take the shortest road between you and the pole, the shortest way is, very convenient, a straight line. It’s better to use another command then you should use to let the dog fetch. For example I use the command “vooooruit” which means something like “goooo”
But at the end of this posting I shall briefly say something about commands
When the dog gets this, the exercise has to be less and less and less thrilling. I mean in one of the last stages the dummy doesn,t get thrown, but is already at the directing pole, and the final stage is removing the directing pole. When you think the dog understood it all you can test him by sending him away (in the exact same way you did on the trail) in an open field without a helper and without a dummy whatsoever.
Get you’re self a decent and fast helper, his job doesn’t end by making funny noises and throwing or putting down dummies. The hardest part for you will be the following (ask Marjolien !!!!!! , she’s always growling ). When the dog, despite you taking all precautions necessary, is able to escape without having had a command, you have to keep quiet. Don’t shout at him, don’t run after him, you don’t give him any attention at all. Ralph, what’s that for shit you’re talking……I’ll tell you. When the dog does something like that, the helper fetches the dummy himself, before the dog that is. You shall see how disappointed the dog will be when he realizes that his reward is given to the helper. What will he do?, he will return to you for another go, really, take my word for it ( under the restriction, you using the proper reward.)


Alright, lets assume you’ve tested the dog and you’ve come to the conclusion that the dog has mastered this exercise. Then and only then we go on with the actual back command.

No 2
We will start all over again, just like in exercise No.1.
Things you’ll need? same as No. 1 including the helper
Even the exercise and the tasks of the helper are the same
Hold you’re horses, hold you’re horses two things are different, namely the position of the dog and your body-language.
A. position of the dog, the dog will sit in front of you with as I said before, mug facing opposite of yours. (He looks at you as it were) rightie then, helper performs his little tricks
B. Bodylanguage, hold both you’re hands at your hart and wham while you give the verbal command, you’re arm flies straight up. Bam, via your ear straight up, palm of the hand facing the dog (nice white spot, remember??)
There the dog goes, principle the same as number one, instructions for the helper are the same, testing will be the same, just the position of the dog and your bodylanguage are different.

I hear you asking “and what about my verbal command, shouldn’t that be different”. Well I personally think that’s a big load of rubbish. I use for No1 and No 2 the same command, vooruit (try to pronounce that you englisch speaking ;D, you can translate it in GO)
Why?, dogs are totally in bodylanguage, it’s the same direction you’re sending him, (just the position of the dog is different), and when the dog is at 100 meters and I want to give him the back command, I have to shout really, really loud, so I want him to react at my body, so why bother my vocal cords.

But I can imagine that it feels awkward to tell the dog to go back when he’s right besides you with his head facing the same direction (that’s why I’m using GO). So I think you’ll have to use the verbales you’re comfortable with.

Alright, just another picture of me and my summer, directing
The back command. In this picture everything is the way I intend it to be.
It was taken at a country fair where we were demonstrating directionals.



Gr. Ralph “smarty-pants”

[mike]

Another great post Ralph, you should write a book

[ralph]

You,ve given me a great compliment here, but although you think i should write a book, i forgot to mention a very essential aspect of the training. Not only an aspect in your directionals but an aspect essential for dogs in any training.

Wind direction

When you start to direct your dog you should send him away with the wind in his back. If you do so the dog will be less distracted by all the interesting scents he picks up.

When you are further in training directionals you can use the wind different, for example, send him away with his nose in the wind.
ie you use the wind as an extra obstacle to test your dog.

gr. Ralph

ps
you find a publisher i'll write a book
nooo just kiddin ;D, but maybe when i've more time
on my hands who knows. But then again what should it be? dogs or carp (don't start me on carp ) or both

[Landlord]

Hi Ralph,

He is fine with the No.1 exercise you mention. and I do the back command as you have said in No.2 with him facing me. If he sees the dummy thrown or from a memory he does the retrieve no problem. I am working on his blinds "back" that is, he hasn't seen the dummy. I either place them before he comes out or I drop them while we walk and then send him back.

[ralph]

looks fine to me, or are there any problems?
To see whether the really, really understands the whole lot you can perform the following test:

Place a blind in advance somewhere in the field, this will be the blind you want him to retrieve
Get your dog and place him on his bum.
Then you throw a dummy (preferably a white one cause is very visible for the dog) in the oppposite direction of where the blind is.
Send your dog to retrieve the blind one, if he does, he understood what you meant.
As a reward he may retrieve the one you,ve thrown.
This goes for all directions. After this you can make youre test more difficult and the dog becomes steadier and steadier at youre directionals.

Please do not make youre steps in training the dog to big. Patience is a virtue.
When you ask to much of the dog, he gets frustrated and you can start all over again.
I Don't say you do, but is a genaral mistake i see (and made) all the time.

gr. Ralph

[Landlord]

Thanks Ralph. I will try that exercise next week and post how I get on!

He is a little rascal at the moment. He has brought me fresh rabbit every day for the last 4 days. I think they are slow because we have snow on the ground. It is usually late on in the evenings when the light is failing so I don't tend to follow him about but rather stay in one place and he disappears off into the bushes. At least he brings them to me. My other dog would just eat them first!

[Landlord]

I tried the exercise and basically he completed it. I dropped the first dummy as a blind then walked 200 yards before sitting him facing me, then took the other dummy and walked 50 yards and threw it. Then went back to him and sent him back for the blind. He first ran in a circle and looked at me though did not attempt to run forward for the seen dummy. I sat him again in front facing me and sent him back again. This time he went and fetched the blind and brought it to me. I then sent him for the seen which he did no problem.

I will keep practicing!

[slava]

Thank you Ralph. I had a real pleasure from reading your lessons.

Just one question. What hand-signal do you use to command "down"?

Russian hunters are using for the "down" the same
hand-signal as you directing the dog back (hand up).

[ralph]

I don't use the down command in my directionals
Just sit, and her sit command is a short burst on a referee whistle.
I want her to sit in the field when there's a change of direction at hand.
Why not down? Imagine the grass is somewhat high, when i put here down she won't be able to see me anymore. (and down takes too long, mostly she
stands waiting for a change of direction, a stand triggered by a very short burst on a normal whistle (attention whistle) When i think about it she only has to sit at trials cause the judge want to see that)
glad you've enjoyed my writing but keep in mind there are many ways to do things, and this is only my view at some aspects of training a gundog.

gr. Ralph