HD results around the world

[Kobie]

Hi ,

I would like to know how X-Rays are read into different countries through the world.

We have in Belgium following strategy:
The dogs have to be at least one year old before they can be X-Rayed and official read by a committee who counts different vets of the Belgian Vet University as committee-members.
Different rules has to be followed through the vet who takes the X-Rays.
The dog has to be anaesthetized, the moment the vet wants to take the X-Rays. Only a perfect position of the dog will be allowed by the committee to examinate the results. So, the dog has to lying on his back, backbone perfect straight.
More than once, actually quite often, the taken X-Rays were send back to the vets, because of a tiniest difference at for example the position of the legs or back.
I've been to a seminary of the University and different Professors have spoken at that time. Quite interested for us, breeders. I had learned quite a lot. I think it's also very interessted for all of us.
If you know that less than 10 % of all readed dogs in Belgium, no mather what breed, get an official HD/A, conform the FCI, you surely know what strict committee we have. If you see a HD/A here in Belgium, read within the last 4 years, you can be sure the dogs hips are MORE THAN PERFECT. It almost don't exist anymore. The tiniest difference, (even a trained eye could not see), means right away HD/B, witch is of course also very good. Even if we have a HD/C, you will have in other countries sertainly HD/B or in some cases HD/A.......

Now I would like to know if the comittees are also that strict in other countries !
I have disscused today once again to a specialist, and she told me we have the right polissy, other countries who are supple don't.
Of course, If we get an HD/A or HD/B here in Belgium, we are super glad, otherwise ......(fill in yourself)....... So more and more breeders cross the borders and go to other countries to let read their dogs hips.

For me, as a weimlover, it's very hard to know what's right. I mean by that , we almost don't know anymore witch HD/A and HD/B 's are real A and B. If hips are read in other countries, can we count on the judgments ??????

I will give you some examples. I know one weim, who had the most perfect pedigree. We go back to 3 generations in our pedigrees. All these dogs were hip scored and had HD/A, one had HD/B.
Finally result of that reading: the dog got HD/D. So out of the question, the owners couldn't breed with that dog. I know once you can have bad luck, but from HD/A to HD/D ???
Another example:
One weim went to do her hip examination to a specialised vet who does only HD in her cabinet. She told the owner, your dog's hips are perfect, nice deep and no difference between right or left. You will have HD/A. Finally result by the committee, HD/B....

I would like to know other meanings and experiences trough other countries

Kobie

[marjolein]

I believe Holland was one of the strictest countries, when it comes to results. A lot of people went to Germany or Belgium, when the results weren't satisfactory. Since the change, a couple of years ago, I think we're at the same level now, with a lot of European countries. Whether or not you give the dog an anaestatic, is up to the vet who makes the x-rays. We rather do it without anaestatic, because there is more muscle tone without it and that canbe positive for the results. But when the dog is not cooperative, you don't have no choice.
Because making x-rays is not an easy job, a lot of vets are not too good at it. It's these vets that get the photos back because the dog is not proper positioned. X-rays have to be perfect, if not, make another one. There is nothing worse than giving the owner a call that the x-rays were send back because of the quality/position of the dog.

And well, HD D out of A parents. Is possible. We all know HD is a hereditary dissease, but it can occur after accidents, bad food and/or too much playing as well.
Another thing is important when looking at pedigrees and hip results of a dog's pedigree. Not only parents and grandparents, but uncle's and aunts as well. Imagine your dog has 2 parents with HD-A. Perfect, unless all their brothers and sisters have positive hips.
Ohhh, HD is such a complex dissease.......

[Kobie]

Hi Marjolein
Thanks for sharing. But like you say, Holland WAS one of the strictest countries. They changed their pollisy.]Now you can come with a Holland read HD/A to Belgium and let them check for the second time. I can garantee you, more will have HD/B or HD/C. That's also what I'm worried about. Holland is like you said, at the same level now, with a lot of European countries. Belgium has now too strict. We fall out of all statistics.
Another example. A dog was read in Belgium and got HD/C. He went to (by the way) Holland for a second opinion. And guess what he get; HD/A !!!!!
Do you think this is fair ??? That is my problem. We don't have much trust anymore if we see hip scores out of another country.
We are also obliged to do the dog in sleep, otherwise, no reading , NO WAY.
And like you said. If the dog is awake, usually you have a better score. But what is wright ???
Kobie

[Sylvia]

Well I only can agree with Marjolein, I think the same about HD. I go far in looking around for the HD and look where it comes from, is it sometimes a HD-C then it don't bothers me, because indeed they whole growing up makes part of it..

And with the X-rays here I read so many times about it.. Do you really want to have good score you have to do the Penn-hip. With the X-ray it also depence so many on the photo. I seen it several times from C to A in the hips. How is that possible in a year?

And we had it ones we got the X-ray back because the contrast wasn't right.. Further all the X-rays of our vet were good. 2 times A and 1 time B in the hips.

[Sylvia]

And as fill up to Marjolein.. The combination is important too to know with HD.
In a linebreed you will see more faults then in an outcross. It is always that 2 of the same genes have to "touch" eachother before you get an explosian of diseases. So if there are a few combinations outcross before and then a linebreed and out of that linebreed comes a lot of dogs with HD then there can be a carrier of the bad HD gene on both sites...

[Kobie]

Well,
I also can say I have a trained eye on X-Rays.
But somewhere, something is wrong in the polissy. I would like to see all FCI connected countries have the same polissy.
Unfortuanatelly, it's not that way
In fact, reading is not normal anymore in Belgium.
And less breeding stock to breed with !

Kobie

[Sylvia]

Well I have read a lot of discussions about HD and also seen a lot of results given here by the Kennelclub where you never can say what the results will be.
Sometimes you get an A with a low Norbergvallue and the other time it is C with the same score on the Norbergvallue. This are not Weimaraners...
You can not say on the forehand what the result will be.
But that is only what the Kennelclub is giving not what the result further is.. A Bone abnormality is still a bone-abnormality and = HD

Well my english is not that good to explain.. So I hope you understand

[Kobie]

I know also about a dog read in Belgium. Result HD/D.
The breeder could not believe this judgment.
He send exactually the same X-Rays to England.
The dog got a total of 18, witch means in a lot of European countries HD/C1 (old reading) or a bad HD/B.

Any news about OFA or AVA is welcome !

Kobie

[Alkemist]

I'm not an expert, but will do what I can to explain the system in the UK.

Dogs have to be 12 months old. The dog can be awake or anaesthetised for the x-ray, which can be done by any vet. They are sent to a panel, who assess all of the hip scores in the country. The dog is awarded a number for each hip. Jensens sire was 2:2, hip score of 4. You can get hip scores of 7:1, 7 being left hip, 1 being right hip. It is then up to the breeder whether or not to use that dog. I think breed average is about 16, but I'm not sure. That could be 8:8, or 15:1. Usually people assume that there might be an underlying injury if the hip score is really bad on one side - don't know if that is true or not.

It is not a requirement to have a hip score for breeding dogs or bitches in this country. There are also debates on whether hip scores are accurate here. People will also limit excercise to get a better hipscore from a 12 month old. They don't allow the dog to go up and down stairs etc. Personally I like my puppies to have a puppyhood, but then again the hip score doesn't disqualify the dog from being used.

A bit vague, but hopefully helps a little.

Nina and Jensen

[Kobie]

Thanks Nina and Jensen.

I exactually see what you mean.
We also don't have a obligation to hip score our weims. But it's the task of a serieus breeder to score the hips.
Not making easy money by breeding, but responsable breed with correct parents.
A dog is so much more than only hips. But I would never breed for example a champion, no matter how big, if the hips are not right. I think such a dog can be a fantastic pet and chear a lot of love ....

Kobie

[Sylvia]

kobie said:

A dog is so much more than only hips. But I would never breed for example a champion, no matter how big, if the hips are not right. I think such a dog can be a fantastic pet and chear a lot of love ....

Kobie

Well and if that dog has only A brothers and sisters and is the only 1 with bad hips? And also has good results earlier in the pedigree?

[Sylvia]

Kobie, if I am right you only see the endscore on the results??
I think that that makes a lot of difference as well.. Because with seeing where the results is from you get a totally other view mostly.

[Kobie]

The dog I mean was out of a small litter of 4 dog. Just one had 'normal' hips.
I just think this was a wrong litter.
These pups were by the way linebreed.

It's surely true that family members are quit important. You will never hear me say otherwise !

Kobie

[szarasfora]

In Poland we use the result names: HD A, B, C etc.
Dogs have to be 12 months old, too. The dog is anaesthetised for the x-ray. The dog is put into a special device that keeps it in the right position. The x-ray can be performed in any vet clinic. But there are only a few vets in the whole country, who are authorised to read the x-ray and give a certificate. These specialists are chosen by the Kennel Club. They are usually veterinary doctors, who work at the Academy of Agriculture at the Departament of Veterinary and they both practice and make scientific researches at the same time. They usually have high academic titles. I think that they are very strict about giving the right opinion and they can be trustworthy.

When you x-ray the dog at your place, the vet sends the x-ray to one of these authorised doctors. And after some time you get the answer and certificate. But when you want to have the opinion and stamp in the pedigree you must go there by yourself. So when we were to x-ray our stud, we had decided to drive 180 km to the best of these specialists. We wanted to be sure that the whole process (anaesthesia, examination and x-ray diagnosis) were done perfectly.

[Kobie]

Hi Iza,
Thank you so much for sharing the reading of Poland X-rays .
I think one of the hardest things in Belgium is that 4 or 5 professors need to see and read each taken x-rays. So there could be 4 or 5 different opinions. And I know if one prof. gives for example a HD/B and the others HD/A, we get a official HD/B.

I can't complaine, because our dog has official (Belgian) HD/A hips, and our female has official HD/B.
But, unfortunately, too many dogs are now these days out of the breeding programm because of these strict rules ....

Kobie

[Ingvild]

We have in Belgium following strategy:
The dogs have to be at least one year old before they can be X-Rayed and official read by a committee who counts different vets of the Belgian Vet University as committee-members.
Different rules has to be followed through the vet who takes the X-Rays.
The dog has to be anesthetized, the moment the vet wants to take the X-Rays. Only a perfect position of the dog will be allowed by the committee to examinate the results. So, the dog has to lying on his back, backbone perfect straight.

It sounds like you have the same rules as we have in Norway, but here we also have to have the knee joint showing on the X-ray. This rule came in the beginning of the nineties and is to insure that people don't manipulate the dogs hips. Also all dogs that are x-rayed have to be ID marked (so they don't x-ray a dog with perfect hips and say it is another dog). The X-ray's are then sent to the Norwegian Kennel Club and graded A,B,C, D or E. (A dog can have one A hip and one D hip.)

[Kobie]

Hi Ingvild,

You are right about the knee joint and the ID marking.
The comittee only allow x-rays with both knee joints (perpendicular on the x-ray).

Is the x-ray at the Norwegian Kennel club also read by different people ??

Kobie

[Ingvild]

No, all the x-rays here in Norway are read by a veterinarian employed by the Norwegian Kennel Club. If the owner appeals the "verdict" it goes to board of veterinarians from Norway, Sweden, Denmark (I'm not sure but I think also Finland).

I find it a bit strange that some countries allow the vet to decide whether to anesthetize or not because that could have real impact on the result. In Sweden some veterinarians had used a drug that only made the dog "drowsy" but didn't put them "all out" and there was a big deal made about that when it got out. (The hips will look better in a dog that is awake or just drowsy.)

[Ilana]

In Israel we have 3 veterinariens that get the X-rays separately,These specialists are chosen by the Israel Kennel Club.
Dogs have to be 12 months old, The dog is anaesthetised for the x-ray,
The x-ray can be performed in any vet clinic .
The scores are :A,B,C,D,E.
The Weimaraner club of Israel alowed males to breed only with score A
females A-B.
The Israeli kennel club get 3 results from those 3 vets and made average score,

[Kobie]

I completely agree with you Ingvild. There is a huge difference between a dog who is anesthetized or not.
It has such a great impact to the result.

Thanks for sharing Ilana. But is there a special reason why a dog only is allowed to breed if he has a HD/A score ??
If such rule would be used here in Belgium, all pups would be family .....