HD results around the world

[Ingvild]

I think it was Marjolein that wrote that some people send the dogs x-rays to other countries if they are not pleased with the result. I'm a bit curious to which countries are known as the "easier" countries to get good hip-marks? It would be something to keep in mind when breeding.

I will give you some examples. I know one weim, who had the most perfect pedigree. We go back to 3 generations in our pedigrees. All these dogs were hip scored and had HD/A, one had HD/B.
Finally result of that reading: the dog got HD/D. So out of the question, the owners couldn't breed with that dog. I know once you can have bad luck, but from HD/A to HD/D

Well HD is a tricky business because it is inherited polygeneticly. Polygenic inheritance is when two or more genes (HD is believed be controlled by multiple genes) have an "additive effect" on a single phenotypic character. These genes are separately inherited. When you add environmental factors into the equation you can see why " A+A sometimes is D".

[Kobie]

Actually, this is the whole problem !!
Belgium keeps their polissy and won't change it and say other countries should be stricter.

I would like to have the same readings all over the world, but I think I'm dreaming .......

For us a problem to breed with a foreign dog or import one from abroad. Because is the foreign HD/B a good one or a bad one, (this would mean at our country certainly a HD/C).
Very complex ........

Kobie

[Irena]

ingvild said:

I think it was Marjolein that wrote that some people send the dogs x-rays to other countries if they are not pleased with the result. I'm a bit curious to which countries are known as the "easier" countries to get good hip-marks? It would be something to keep in mind when breeding.

Estonia as opposed to Latvia, for example. Some go to Estonia because supposedly fewer dogs come back with bad HD results if tested there.

[Ingvild]

My point was that if we know that one country is not as strict as another we can take precautions when breeding. (Of course the "best" way to read an x-ray is not always agreed on). Here the Weimaraner club won't recommend a litter if the stud dog hasn't been x-rayed in one of the countries that the Norwegian Kennel Club "approves". If the dog has been x-rayed in a country that is not approved the Weimaraner club recommends that the breeder asks the owner of the stud dog to send us the x-rays.

[Sylvia]

Well I think it all will be work easier if you see on the certificate of the HD how the result is build up.
Because then you can see if the result is good or bad.
I know that there are breeds here in Holland who are allowed to breed with HD -D, but they don't use every HD-D dog, they want to see what the result really is.
It is maybe strange, but.. A dog with NO boneabnormality still can get a HD-D.
My problem is that I can not explain it in English how it is build up... I don't know the technical words for it... sorry... I only can explain in Dutch.

[Kobie]

sylvia said:

Well I think it all will be work easier if you see on the certificate of the HD how the result is build up.
Because then you can see if the result is good or bad.
I know that there are breeds here in Holland who are allowed to breed with HD -D, but they don't use every HD-D dog, they want to see what the result really is.
It is maybe strange, but.. A dog with NO boneabnormality still can get a HD-D.
My problem is that I can not explain it in English how it is build up... I don't know the technical words for it... sorry... I only can explain in Dutch.

Ok Sylvia,

this is the hipresult of my bitch


right- left

lleumvl.cm 2,7-2,7
Femur-//(°) 1°-1,5°
Norberg 102,5-102
Acetabulum (cm) 1,5-1,4
Groeil.-tot.(cm) 2,5-2,5
Groeil.-bed.(cm) 1,4-1,4
FHC(+/- mm) 0-0

I'm very sure this result would give without discussion HD/A in many countries, including Holland, France ....
She got HD/B.

Kobie

[Ingvild]

Do you think breeders are hesitant to use a stud dog with B hips ?

[Kobie]

ingvild said:

Do you think breeders are hesitant to use a stud dog with B hips ?

This is my point of view.
A dog x-rayed in Belgium with B hips, I would not hesitate to use him.
A dog in for example France, always have one degree better score in the hips than here. So this HD/B I would not be sure of.

If I would use a stud dog with B hips, I would breed him to an A scanned bitch.

Or I would like to see the x-rays by myself. I have seen now many scores and I probably could see the good ones.

Kobie

[Sylvia]

kobie said:

sylvia said:

Well I think it all will be work easier if you see on the certificate of the HD how the result is build up.
Because then you can see if the result is good or bad.
I know that there are breeds here in Holland who are allowed to breed with HD -D, but they don't use every HD-D dog, they want to see what the result really is.
It is maybe strange, but.. A dog with NO boneabnormality still can get a HD-D.
My problem is that I can not explain it in English how it is build up... I don't know the technical words for it... sorry... I only can explain in Dutch.

Ok Sylvia,

this is the hipresult of my bitch


right- left

lleumvl.cm 2,7-2,7
Femur-//(°) 1°-1,5°
Norberg 102,5-102
Acetabulum (cm) 1,5-1,4
Groeil.-tot.(cm) 2,5-2,5
Groeil.-bed.(cm) 1,4-1,4
FHC(+/- mm) 0-0

I'm very sure this result would give without discussion HD/A in many countries, including Holland, France ....
She got HD/B.

Kobie

Well the most things you give up here we don't see in Holland on the results.
But if I look to the Norbergvalue and then count it over to the Dutch scale she will have 24,5 Norbergvalue which is very low and will give a B in Holland as well.

And yes I know they give sometimes A for that Norbergvalue, but I see also very often they give B for under the 30 (Dutch Scale)

[Sylvia]

kobie said:

Or I would like to see the x-rays by myself. I have seen now many scores and I probably could see the good ones.

Kobie

I will always ask for the total score to see where they got that B on And I think that that will be the best to do

[Kobie]

This is the first x-ray we allowed to see here.
The comittee now allow that we could buy the x-rays with the official result.
So our complane to the board worked !!

I have also another Norberg result on her hips.
98°-95°
the second was 102,5 and 102

We don't count like in Holland. I don't know what it would be in your country.

Kobie

[Sylvia]

kobie said:

This is the first x-ray we allowed to see here.
The comittee now allow that we could buy the x-rays with the official result.
So our complane to the board worked !!

I have also another Norberg result on her hips.
98°-95°
the second was 102,5 and 102

We don't count like in Holland. I don't know what it would be in your country.

Kobie

Hard to tell in english again
I have it in Dutch with pictures of X-rays.

[Kobie]

Hi Sylvia,

Please send it to me by email

Kobie

[marjolein]

kobie said:

Or I would like to see the x-rays by myself. I have seen now many scores and I probably could see the good ones.

Kobie

And this is so difficult. We make official x-rays on a very regular base. We never give comments on the outcome, coz you can NEVER tell what it will be. You need to know how to make the calculations. So don't count on your ability to interpretate x-rays.

[Kobie]

And this is so difficult. We make official x-rays on a very regular base. We never give comments on the outcome, coz you can NEVER tell what it will be. You need to know how to make the calculations. So don't count on your ability to interpretate x-rays. [/quote]

Sylvia send me the way of working in Holland, conserning the reading of the Norberg value.

My bitch would have 37,5 Norberg, with means in your country sertainly HD/A (what I thought).
Maximum score is 40.

Kobie

[Ilana]

Kobie,

The reason why our Weim club made this rulls is that because at the beginning we had a few imported dogs from England and Germany (1975-1985),
One of those males was top stud dog in Israel and top winning dog,he was bred with 80% of the females in Israel.
when we established the club in 1983,we started to made an X-rays and the results was a disasder.
This stud male had hip score D ,most of his puppies were C or D,
So most of the Israeli weims had a very bad hips,
We got an edvise from the head of the radiologist of the Israel Kennel Club to limit the males that allowed to breed to hip score A ,
So first we stop to let this male bred ,we impoted a few wiems from USA that had a very good hips.
Today 20 years later most of the Weimaraners that born in Israel has a very good hip score (A).
and most of them are not a family.

This stud dog was a very agressive to peoples too and he produced a very bad temperament puppies,
so we had to fix it too ,and we did it with the American lines.

kobie said:

I completely agree with you Ingvild. There is a huge difference between a dog who is anesthetized or not.
It has such a great impact to the result.

Thanks for sharing Ilana. But is there a special reason why a dog only is allowed to breed if he has a HD/A score ??
If such rule would be used here in Belgium, all pups would be family .....

[Kobie]

Thanks Ilana,

I can understand the drastical turn around in your country. Hips are sooo important to have a healthy breed.

Our male is a top hunting dog in our country. We also want to limit his matings. He is 3 years old now, and very much wanted for his hunting abilities.
Our country is a small one, and I don't like to see too much little Bill's over here. So the bitches we allowe must have also diploma's in the field or huntingtests, good pedigrees and good hips.

By the way, he has Belgian readed HD/A hips, witch means exeptional.

Kobie

[Weims]

The breed average in the UK is 13

Lynn

[greyflyte]

In NZ the average is 8 but there arent many dogs being scored.
Rookie scored 5.

[Ingvild]

In NZ the average is 8 but there arent many dogs being scored.

Why is that (that there arent many being scored)?