Line breeding or outcross

[syrinx]

On the Nani website, they say that all of the dogs they have bred go back to their original litter. And then there is Joga. How many imports, and how many Australian dogs is he behind? I cannot say how often the same dogs came up over and over when I took my pedigrees back a long way. They may be a long way back, but it is still the common genes, and there are things that we still don't understand the inheritance of. You would not think there is basically any link between my Zed and Lara, but they are WAY closer than you would think. The other lines are the same. And looking at data bases, it is not just the lines I have. The problem is that people here seem to run out and use the what ever the flavour of the month is (and that seems to have more to do with who imported it, rather than the quality of the dog, as you know first hand) And so these excedingly popular sires basically cause a genetic bottleneck, which we may pay for in the long run. Some European countries are limiting dogs to three litters. Three may be a bit severe, but I think an ad that boasts a dog having more than 60 litters on the ground, and still now producing more by AI years after its death is not a good thing. And say if only now people were starting to think there may be, we'll say heart problems, what then?
Wendy

[christina]

Wendy - you so speak my mind !!!

****And so these excedingly popular sires basically cause a genetic bottleneck, which we may pay for in the long run.

I could not agree more - Just look at the - oh so proudly announced - "Winner of the Stud Dog Trophy" in the UK for example. The same dog won it from 1994 through to 1999, with the exception of year 1997, when his own grandson took the trophy off him. Do your maths .... how many matings would a stud have to perform in order to win the trophy for the year ??

Sadly for me and mine, Thomas was so closely inbred that he is practically a genetic clone of this particular dog. Kimber is not quite as close to him, but nonetheless, he is in there, and on both sides - coming down the same 'bottleneck' .......

So yes, I do pray that people will finally wake up.

Christina

[Irena]

Wendy, I totally understand. I get tricked sometimes while looking at pedigrees, e.g. I see a prefix I don't know in the very last column and think, wow, this must finally be something different, only to find out that the dog was sired by the same famous stud, and the dam was e.g. a litter sister to another well known dam or sire but was obviously bought by someone who bred the litter under their own prefix.

One such example (random) to me was Furstlich Arimar Lady - who turned out to be sired by Aust Ch Deerpath's Charlemagne.

Or, Aust Ch Lindridge Wee Jasper - again sired by Deerpath Charlemagne out of Austweim Shady Lady.

[daniela]

If you want a REAL look at your dog's pedigree, try doing a 10 generation pedigree

I have also done a 10 generation pedigree for a bitch we bred back in the early '90s.

I had a few gaps in my research and I should revisit it, as information, what with the www, is so more accessible now.

I found it completely fascinating building up her pedigree so far back, and now Irena you make me want to start another one!

Out of interest, is your 10 generation a circular type, and where did you get it from?

Thanks in advance.

[daniela]

Some European countries are limiting dogs to three litters. Three may be a bit severe, but I think an ad that boasts a dog having more than 60 litters on the ground, and still now producing more by AI years after its death is not a good thing.

I have never heard of a (stud) dog being limited to three litters. Which countries impose this?

Do you think there should be a cap on the amount of litters a dog can sire? Or perhaps, a cap on how many he can sire in any 12 month period? Having said that, I guess if someone is determined to use a dog of a certain line, there are usually litter brothers, or sons et al that can be used if a specific dog has reached his yearly/lifetime limit?

[Irena]

daniela said:

Out of interest, is your 10 generation a circular type, and where did you get it from?

Oi... WOW... I had not seen any of those before, I must admit you had me go google for it.... Nope!!! Mine is just a HUGE big file in the form of a regular pedigree which is getting even bigger as I add additional info on every dog. I was seriously thinking of using my wall (white wallpaper! ) to draw up the whole thing when I am done. LOL, too bad I'm planning on moving soon. ;D

Would a circular pedigree help, do you think? Is it as convenient and compact as it looks in the pics I seen in Google?

[daniela]

Would a circular pedigree help, do you think? Is it as convenient and compact as it looks in the pics I seen in Google?

Irena, where you been honey? You gotta get a circular one! I thought that was what you were using?

It's a good 15 years since I bought one but they must still do them. I will have a think and see if I can find a link on the web for you.

I want one now too, so I will definitely do some 'googling' and let you know what I find. ;D

[daniela]

I know this is for humans but this is what mine looks like:

ancestrycircle.com/

[daniela]

Here you go!

www.familytreeprinting.co.uk/products.htm

[simona]

When I was on mating with Liam this year his breeder told me that he can mate just 4 females throught his life in Netherland. Abroad how much they wanted. Club take this cause they wanted to make a bigger gen pole, BUT breeder opinion and experiences is that it doesnt work" If the dog cannot be used, then are used immediately their brother and sons (mainly of closer mating on one ancestor to stick the type). So the pedigrees are still the same.
So do you think that this is a rational way? You cannot urge owners of brood females to use dog which they didnt wanted despite he isnt unrelative. owners of stud dog are angry that he cannot breed, owner o females are angry they cannot use him and all together it still doesnt put any pluses in wider gene pole

[Irena]

Thanks Daniela!! I really appreciate it, wow, I didn't even know such a thing existed. You may have just saved my beautiful white walls. ;D

[daniela]

How far back have you got Irena?

I have just seen they do 11 generation ones.....wouldn't mind getting stuck into one of them!

[Sylvia]

simona said:

When I was on mating with Liam this year his breeder told me that he can mate just 4 females throught his life in Netherland. Abroad how much they wanted. Club take this cause they wanted to make a bigger gen pole, BUT breeder opinion and experiences is that it doesnt work" If the dog cannot be used, then are used immediately their brother and sons (mainly of closer mating on one ancestor to stick the type). So the pedigrees are still the same.
So do you think that this is a rational way? You cannot urge owners of brood females to use dog which they didnt wanted despite he isnt unrelative. owners of stud dog are angry that he cannot breed, owner o females are angry they cannot use him and all together it still doesnt put any pluses in wider gene pole

The way is the breeders who want to breed. They have to look further then the "neighbours" dog.. The most breeders want it simple, in the country and if possible so nearby as possible. They want new blood but don't want to make a trip for that, must be too expensive
It helps a little to limit the litters of a dog, but does not make the genepole wider if still breeders don't want to look further.

If I only look how many people around are looking at / for Vidar. And that only because he is "new blood" as an import and nearby?

[Irena]

daniela said:

How far back have you got Irena?

You know, like you said, these days it must be much easier to research pedigrees (as long as we assume we can rely on the information provided in databases online). I am pretty sure I will have no problem getting all 10 generations fully complete soon (just a matter of time really), but I also don't ignore any earlier ones if I happen to come across any. I just copy the pedigrees for future reference, just in case. I have gotten as far as the German dogs behind the American dogs that were imported into Aussie, and I know I won't be able to find much information on these dogs except names, and names per se don't mean a whole lot, I guess. Indeed at times (while on the early American Weim generations) I worried I would end up with the same sire and dam in a whole slot! (OK, I am exaggerating a little, but they ARE inbred alright!)

[marjolein]

I have at least 5000 German Weims in my database Irena!

[syrinx]

Numbers of litters - four not three - pretty close. I knew the Nederlands was limiting them, and I think one of the Nordic countries too, but might be wrong.
Wendy

[anne]

Irena,
I forgot to mention a couple things when we chatted yesterday:
You might want to consider getting pedigree software. There are a few out there that are apparently very good (I still need to purchase one!) This way you can have it figure out the Coefficient of inbreeding as well.
Also, someone mentioned the Can Gen list. I am on there and there is some EXCELLENT information there from knowledgable people.
groups.yahoo.com/group/Canine-Genetics/
Also see its associated page www.canine-genetics.com/
Anne

[Irena]

Anne, thank you, as a matter of fact I just downloaded a demo version of www.zooeasy.com/ - am trying to find my way around in it now.

[Irena]

marjolein said:

I have at least 5000 German Weims in my database Irena!

Marjolein, and others with databases, how do you guys do it? If it is online somewhere, can we others access them too?

[Sylvia]

admin said:

marjolein said:

I have at least 5000 German Weims in my database Irena!

Marjolein, and others with databases, how do you guys do it? If it is online somewhere, can we others access them too?

Well I put in everything I find, by putting in all dogs you get the "connections"
You know Finland how it is... Well Finland I have in. Sweden has it the same way + they have a "Kennelclub Hunddata" kennet.skk.se/hunddata/
Also Finland has a Hunddata although my Finnish is not my best language
For Holland I putted in all combinations ever done here out of the Weimaranerbook, that is till the beginning of 2001. I took all the HD results, and further I have the clubmagazines from 2000 - 2005 where I will take out more of the combinations. And our Kennelclub was trying for an online database, but is now already offline for 6 months But in there comes only the dogs born after 1993.
Well and so I search and search... The results is now over 18.000.
It all takes a lot of time, if you know I am busy for more then a half year now.