Line breeding or outcross

[daniela]

I love the idea of the database, we have similar pedigree databases here in the UK but I am just wondering with the mention of the database being able to figure out the coefficient of inbreeding, how does this work exactly?

Who programmed the database to do this? Was it programmed by an IT person along with a geneticist?

Don't get me wrong I am all for advances in technology but I wouldn't be prepared to consider the 'statistics' unless I knew how the database was designed to throw out this information and who programmed it and why it worked this way.....

What ho?

[marjolein]

Daniela, tbh I have no idea how you figure out the coefficient. I have searched the internet for it, b4 I got this programm Irena linked, but couldn't find it. The programm does it for me now.
Irena, I have a lot of Weimaraner Zuchtbuch from Ina. I'm borrowing them and I enter all the litters from 1977 on in the database. This is a lot of work (!!!!) but well worth it. I'm in 1994 now, and by the time I'm finished I will have loads of dogs in the database. Sylvia and I are working together, once I'm done and she's done, we put both databases together. Are you lot jealous already ?

[syrinx]

I sure am

[syrinx]

I SO wish I had grown up in Europe and could speak more than just one language! I feel so dumb around you guys, no matter how your Finnish is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wendy (crawling back under her rock!)

[Sylvia]

syrinx said:

I SO wish I had grown up in Europe and could speak more than just one language! I feel so dumb around you guys, no matter how your Finnish is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wendy (crawling back under her rock!)

I think the person who founded out the finnish was really drunk ;D
But we have here in Europe a lot of languages, so many that I only can read a little from a few languages. That also comes because of the interest... I want to know more about the Weimaraners in that specific country well then I first have to learn a little from a language.

[anne]

Daniela,

Don't know the answers to your questions. I know there are a few different ones out there. From what I recall from a discussion on another group some time ago, I THINK there are at least a few different ways. I actually remember seeing a mathematical foruma and a name for it, and a discussion about another formula (and name) which some felt was better than the other and so on. I probably saw it on the CanGen list since a lot of their conversations are pretty cerebral.

Also I recall that most software only calculates COIs in the last 10 generations which may give an inaccurate idea if compared to a COI that considers more generations.

All that said, I have not looked into it, so take my comments wiht a grain of salt!

And.... a question ------

I have seen statistics about the average COI based on 10 generations of particular breeds. Therefore breeders have a baseline to work with. JUST HOW INBRED ARE WEIMARANERS as a whole anyway? I would love to see a baseline number of sorts.

[daniela]

Well I ask out of curiosity really.

I am interested in pedigrees and heritage full stop. The fact that there are databases out there that can then interpret this information into percentages of how much something is related/unrelated is new to me. I have never heard of this before.

What concerns me, is how this information is programmed to give this information. It's one thing for an IT person to have designed it but surely, only a geneticist is the only person who can determine whether something is line bred, out crossed or inbred?

Moreover, like you I am wondering just how much people think Weimaraners are inbred. Also do people see the word inbred as a bad/dirty/negative word when it comes to breeding dogs?

[Ingvild]

Finding the inbreeding coefficient is done like this:
(It's called that paht method)
An individual inherits half of it's "genetic material" from it's mother and half from it's father. The individual therefor shares half of its DNA with each of it's parents and is therefor "50% related" to each of it's parents. We know that 50% can be written as 1/2 of a whole.

If two dogs are related they have one or more ancestors in common. In the next diagram I've posted below you can see the "relation" between first cousins. A is the grandfather, C and D are the grandfathers sons and E and F are "the cousins".
(B/c the mothers aren't related they don't count and we don't have to include them.)



In this imaginary pedigree we find that the cousins also share another ancestor, their grandmother. Let's call the grandmother "B". (The other individuals have the same letters as above.)




When you want to calculate the inbreeding % between the two cousins you count the number of "lines" from one cousin to the other. You then multiply 1/2 with it self the same amount of times. When you have 2 common ancestors, like we have here, you have to do this twice. The two numbers you end up with you add up. The to cousins are therefor 12,5% "related".



If you breed the to cousins with each other the inbreeding coefficient for their off-spring will be:
(1/2) x "% related" = 2/32 = 6,25%

[daniela]

LOL, bless you Ingvild for posting that.

Not sure whether I truly understand it. Give me a while and I'll get my head around it and then I'll come back with some questions like I always do

[daniela]

OK, how long did that take me? LOL

Okey dokey, we've done the maths, now what? Tells you mathematical how much they are related. How do you use that information?

I guess I am playing devil's advocate here but I am just trying to find out how people then use this information once they have it. Is it a guide? What percentage do you get to before you consider it too close? Why do you think that?

Questions, questions, questions!

[Ingvild]

Because of our small population linebreeding has been controlled strictly by the breeding committee over the years (maximum of 12,5 percent but for the most part far less if any). We only have around 300 weims here in Norway.

[daniela]

Really? You mean your breed club or the KC? How did they come to that figure and why?

I know I am asking a lot of questions, nature of the beast (!), I go down a treat in meetings!

[anne]

OK curiosity got the better of me. What Ingvild posted is one way.

What I was thinking about was Wright's method....

Read this if you want to boggle your mind. If you look at this page you will see the formula which looks very complicated and they actually work out a pedigree with diff methods.

www.highflyer.supanet.com/coefficient.htm


COEFFICIENT OF INBREEDING
AN INVESTIGATION INTO WRIGHT'S EQUATION AND HARDIMAN'S METHOD

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wright's Equation and Hardiman's Method are both based on the principle that the inbreeding of an individual is one half the relationship of its sire and dam, however the calculations involve different data and so the inbreeding coefficients produced by them are not interchangeable and should not be compared with each other. Wright's Equation is haphazardly calculated to any number of generations, whereas Hardiman's Method is always calculated to five generations. Wright's Equation considers duplicated ancestors only if they are common to both sire and dam, whereas Hardiman's Method considers all duplicated ancestors. Wrights Equation considers inbred ancestors only if they are duplicated ancestors, whereas Hardiman's Method considers all inbred ancestors. It should be noted here that an inbreeding coefficient is of little value without a standard to which it can be compared, so the proposed Register of Inbreeding Coefficients will be used to calculate a breed average for comparison.

[daniela]

Ingvild, do you mean line breeding or inbreeding?

[anne]

Also Bremar's site will calculate % blood and will includes in the pedigree Orlandi's linbreeding notation.
"Percent genetic contribution (blood percent or inbreeding coeficient) is the average percent of genes which may be passed to the offspring from the common ancestor. Adjusted to total to 100% for the selected number of generations.
Dr. Orlandi's linebreeding notation shows the generation and number of occurences of the common ancestor behind both sire and dam. E.G.: 3,3 To 2 describes a dog occuring twice in the 3rd generation on the sire's side and once in the second generation on the dam's side. Positions behind the 4th generation are not considered. "

This is Riley's:

4 Generation Research Pedigree for
DCH Outdoors Life Of Riley CD JH SDX RDX VX2 D Riley SN73959506 25 25E




+--AM/CAN CH Smokey City's Easy Doesit NSD NRD V BROM D SD336709 10/83 (3,153)[0,1] +--AM/CAN CH Valmar Smokey City Ultra Easy JH NSD BROM D Easy SD915356 10/85 (146,388)[1,7] | +--CH Valmar Serenade V Wustenwind BROM B SC698258 5/80 (9,184)[0,2] +--CH Wismar Lockport Otis Jackson BROM D Jackson SN04571203 2-95 25G (17,10)[0,1] | | +--CH Wismar's Jack Daniels BROM D Jack SE488048 6/88 (26,18) | +--CH Wismar's Mint Julep BROM B Julie SF408598 11-91 25G (6,34) | +--CH Wismar's Cassetta Cabe B SE216295 1/89 25G (3,6)+--CH Greymist's Xactly Right JH NRD V D Mel SN34968807 8-00 34E (1)[1]| | +--AM/CAN CH Valmar Smokey City Ultra Easy JH NSD BROM D Easy SD915356 10/85 (146,388)[1,7]| | +--CH Silversmith Ez Payment Plan JH CD SD V BROM D Cash SF429879 9-90 (34,46)| | | +--CH Silversmith Page V Reiteralm NRD NSD V BROM B SE328388 2/89 28G (7,47)| +--CH Greymist's Silver Cloud BROM B SM85031601 8-96 29G (5,1)[0,1]| | +--DUAL CH Valmar's Valiant Knight CD NRD VX BROM D Val SE116082 8/86 (26,57)[0,1]| +--CH Sunmist Silver Shadow JH CD BROM B SE817907 8-91 (4,5)| +--CH Sunmist Mourning Dove B SD276915 5/85 (3,4)DCH Outdoors Life Of Riley CD JH SDX RDX VX2 D Riley SN73959506 25 25E | +--FC/NAFC/AFCH Dc's Hans Tobie Von Sieger SDX NRD D SB998258 11/85 101 (0,1)[1,16]| +--FCH/AFCH Andick's Big Time Jake D Jake SE399546 11/87 27G (1,3)[16,28]| | +--FCH Rosa Andick Luxembourg B SD197184 11/85 (0,1)[1,16]| +--Outdoors Charlie D SF573430 5-94 56G (0,1)[1,1]| | | +--NFC/FC/AFCH Laine's Thor Von Time Bomb SDX D SB690201 2/80 (1,3)[6,13]| | +--FCH/AFCH Outdoors Tony Lama B SE324346 1/88 57G (0,1)[9,10]| | +--NFC/FC/AFCH Outdoors Boots B SC794487 9/85 [3,10]+--FCH Outdoors Twister B Twister SN43478501 8-00 (1)[1] | +--NFC/FC/AFCH Laine's Thor Von Time Bomb SDX D SB690201 2/80 (1,3)[6,13] | +--NFCH/AFCH Hoglunds Tiger Von Thor D SE407664 10/86 24G [3,4] | | +--NFC/FC/AFCH Edith Ann Von Horn SDX NRD B Edith Ann SD146467 12/83 24 [5,6] +--FCH/AFCH Outdoors Shawnee B SF908464 9-96 59G (0,1)[2,1] | +-- +--Sharp's Lady Genevieve B 10-89 [2,4] +--



Percent Genetic Contribution from 4 Generation Pedigree with Orlandi Linebreeding notation
12.500 CH Greymist's Xactly Right JH NRD V D Mel SN34968807 8-00 34E
12.500 FCH Outdoors Twister B Twister SN43478501 8-00
6.250 CH Greymist's Silver Cloud BROM B SM85031601 8-96 29G
6.250 Outdoors Charlie D SF573430 5-94 56G
6.250 FCH/AFCH Outdoors Shawnee B SF908464 9-96 59G
6.250 CH Wismar Lockport Otis Jackson BROM D Jackson SN04571203 2-95 25G
4.688 AM/CAN CH Valmar Smokey City Ultra Easy JH NSD BROM D Easy SD915356 10/85
3.125 FCH/AFCH Andick's Big Time Jake D Jake SE399546 11/87 27G
3.125 FCH/AFCH Outdoors Tony Lama B SE324346 1/88 57G
3.125 Sharp's Lady Genevieve B 10-89
3.125 CH Silversmith Ez Payment Plan JH CD SD V BROM D Cash SF429879 9-90
3.125 CH Sunmist Silver Shadow JH CD BROM B SE817907 8-91
3.125 Unknown
3.125 NFC/FC/AFCH Laine's Thor Von Time Bomb SDX D SB690201 2/80
3.125 NFCH/AFCH Hoglunds Tiger Von Thor D SE407664 10/86 24G
3.125 CH Wismar's Mint Julep BROM B Julie SF408598 11-91 25G
1.563 CH Silversmith Page V Reiteralm NRD NSD V BROM B SE328388 2/89 28G
1.563 AM/CAN CH Smokey City's Easy Doesit NSD NRD V BROM D SD336709 10/83
1.563 CH Sunmist Mourning Dove B SD276915 5/85
1.563 NFC/FC/AFCH Outdoors Boots B SC794487 9/85
1.563 FC/NAFC/AFCH Dc's Hans Tobie Von Sieger SDX NRD D SB998258 11/85 101
1.563 CH Valmar Serenade V Wustenwind BROM B SC698258 5/80
1.563 FCH Rosa Andick Luxembourg B SD197184 11/85
1.563 DUAL CH Valmar's Valiant Knight CD NRD VX BROM D Val SE116082 8/86
1.563 CH Wismar's Cassetta Cabe B SE216295 1/89 25G
1.563 CH Wismar's Jack Daniels BROM D Jack SE488048 6/88
1.563 NFC/FC/AFCH Edith Ann Von Horn SDX NRD B Edith Ann SD146467 12/83 24

[anne]

(sorry the formatting of the pedigree didn't come out right)

[daniela]

That's really interesting Anne. This is a new world to me.

Guess, I'll have to read it over and over to take it in but it will make for interesting reading on the way to work.

[anne]

Daniela,

If this piques your interest, join the Canine Genetics list. There are PhDs there that love this stuff. I don't have a good grasp on it. All I have gathered so far is that each method has its pros and cons and aren't cross-comparible.

Further I would like to have some kind of baseline but I get the feeling that no one knows what that is here in the US anyway.

Anne

[daniela]

Oh I lovely anything that makes the old brain tick over!

It's all quite scientific, and that doesn't come easy to me and it's the kind of thing I have to read over and over for it to sink in but I like to know how and why so that sounds like a great list for me to join!

[anne]

groups.yahoo.com/group/Canine-Genetics/

Have fun and be sure to report back to us! HAHA

Actually I am still on that list but am not reading as much as I used to. Need to get back into it.