Blue in Australia

[tasha]

the only country they are common in is the US. France now has a breeder as does the uk and those puppies will I am sure be bred from because of the cost of a puppy here and the novelty factor.

I think this is why so many people are wary of the blue coat, if this occurred regularly like the longhair does and in other countries fair enough but all blues can be traced back to casar and that is where the problem lies, genetics points out that you cannot breed a grey to a grey weimaraner to get a blue, it has to be a blue to a grey or a blue to a blue, so it has to have had something in the history which produced casar? What that something is can only be speculated.

I don't think it is really important that there are maternal siblings in the equasion unless they were from the same litter or from the same mating effectively if it was a crossed litter and the dam was definitely a weimaraner then these siblings would not be effected with the same genetic code.

It is true to say however that the american dogs have had a strong influence on other countries breed programs. When choosing a sire how far back do most breeders go? Do they look at the conformation of the dog and then make a decision based on the parents or do they go further back??? It is unlikely that most people will even know if their lines have a blue line in them. They certainly don't go back over 50 years to see if any of their dogs or the stud dog goes back to a casar and that is the only real way you will be able to tell because of the grey pups in a litter - I have but more from curiosity than anything else and am slowly mapping casar's progeny.

Even if you go to the UK to get a stud and we have exported several dogs to Australia, Africa etc you are not guaranteed that a blue line won't be present because the UK has had several american dogs that have been a big impact on the UK lines prior to export we have also exported to europe and our dogs have had an impact on european lines so avoiding the UK is no guarantee either.

Some of our best kennels have a blue line but none produce blue dogs.

[anne]

lrichter said:

What I don't understand, and I guess that makes me sceptical, is that with all the US dogs that have been used here in Australia, I have never heard of any blues being born here. I think I am pretty much 'in the know' with what is happening in the breed here but maybe I have missed something. Suzy, Liz, Lanie, Carol??? With the variety of US lines used here surely a blue would have cropped up sooner or later if it was so common.

There is a simple explanation for this. Blue is dominant. If a gray descendent of a blue is used, you will never have a "throwback" not will it pop up unexpectedly in the future. Once you get rid of blue, it's gone. Unlike of course recessive genes like LH where there can be carriers and it will often pop up later, sometimes as a surprise.

The AKC actually explains this in the letter sent to the WCA when they allowed the blue disqualification: “[There is] no reason to fear that the outstandingly good qualities of any blue dog or bitch could not be passed on to future generations of the breed without retaining the darker color.”

lrichter said:

I guess the argument for their acceptance is not being helped by the fact that a lot of 'backyard' and puppy mills have profited on the novelty aspect of the color, much like the 'silver' Labradors.

Unfortunately this is true. There are only 2 blue breeders that I recommend.

lrichter said:

Are blues common in any other country? What specific lines do they go back to does any one know?

Tasha asked me to name them and I said it was too politically un-PC for me to do so.... <G>
This article www.weim.net/twn/General/EWood%20-%20StandardRevisions(5-92essay).htm (cut and paste the link) names some kennels in reference 16.

[anne]

tasha said:

I think this is why so many people are wary of the blue coat, if this occurred regularly like the longhair does and in other countries fair enough

Another way to look at it this is, "what you see is what you get" You never have to fear blue carriers. If you don't want them, don't breed them. One of the reasons Americans didn't want LHs was because of the recessive factor. Thus what is the fear? If you never use them, you'll never get them. Not a big deal. On the other hand, if someone did choose to breed LH's, sometimes you get one unexpectedly. In the US that means a dog you cannot show.

tasha said:

but all blues can be traced back to casar and that is where the problem lies, genetics points out that you cannot breed a grey to a grey weimaraner to get a blue, it has to be a blue to a grey or a blue to a blue, so it has to have had something in the history which produced casar? What that something is can only be speculated.

Yes, I think most people are afraid of crossbred dogs in their pedigree, but as you point out later, it's almost moot. Most people don't even know there are blues way back in the pedigrees.

tasha said:

I don't think it is really important that there are maternal siblings in the equasion unless they were from the same litter or from the same mating effectively if it was a crossed litter and the dam was definitely a weimaraner then these siblings would not be effected with the same genetic code.

Yes that's true, but my point was that he comes from good German lines. We'll never know if he was crossbred or not. He looks like a full Weim to me, but mostly the strongest argument for me is how can a crossbred dog produce so well? Elizabeth Wood mentions that you would expect a high percentage of tan-pointed dogs in Casar's linebred offspring if he were doberman crossed, and that hasn't born out.

tasha said:

It is true to say however that the american dogs have had a strong influence on other countries breed programs. When choosing a sire how far back do most breeders go? Do they look at the conformation of the dog and then make a decision based on the parents or do they go further back??? It is unlikely that most people will even know if their lines have a blue line in them. They certainly don't go back over 50 years to see if any of their dogs or the stud dog goes back to a casar and that is the only real way you will be able to tell because of the grey pups in a litter - I have but more from curiosity than anything else and am slowly mapping casar's progeny.

Right. So what's the big deal? People go on and on about purported crossbred when in reality they aren't even looking back in their own pedigrees to see that there is blue back there. It's a non-issue.

tasha said:

Even if you go to the UK to get a stud and we have exported several dogs to Australia, Africa etc you are not guaranteed that a blue line won't be present because the UK has had several american dogs that have been a big impact on the UK lines prior to export we have also exported to europe and our dogs have had an impact on european lines so avoiding the UK is no guarantee either.

When is one ever certain about the purity of our dogs? There are rumors about pointer crosses for instance. You and I have talked about the AKC pedigree papers saying all sorts of weird things about color on Weims, as another example. And further one blue dog 50 years ago doens't matter. One blue dog 1 generation ago does not matter. You will never get blue if you don't breed it. Whether people believe in crossbred theory or not, there are others that believe that Casar was purebred. But now reputable breeders that believe blues are from a pure line, their hands are tied because of the disqualification. Blues aren't going to influence any other kennel that doesn't want them (unlike LH's).

tasha said:

Some of our best kennels have a blue line but none produce blue dogs.

Of course not.

[daniela]

I am curious. What would happen if you walked into the ring in America with a blue Weimaraner? I seem to recall reading something about this being an instant DQ. What does this mean exactly? Does it mean that you would be excused from the ring without being judged?

[Leslie]

Anne has as usual addressed all issues with eloquence. So I'll mostly just say "ditto"

It's always interesting when people get so worked up over a possible cross-breed from nearly 60 years ago - which was more than 12 generations ago, but there are open secrets about pointer crosses in America and I know France in very recent generations, but since they are not obvious it gets swept under the carpet.

tasha said:

the only country they are common in is the US. France now has a breeder as does the uk and those puppies will I am sure be bred from because of the cost of a puppy here and the novelty factor.

I think you are referring to the Blues you have in England, but since I was lumped into that sentence I want to make it perfectly clear that I am strongly against novelty pricing of blues and I try hard to breed gray AND blues for quality. I think my pups are showing that.

[anne]

The judge should disqualfy the dog and the dog would not be judged. The judge would make a notation in his judges book. This can be contested through appropriate channels if the judge made a mistake.
However, there are occasional stories even to this day of people unknowingly walking into the ring with a blue and the blue being judged.

[daniela]

We don't have DQs listed within our standard so if a blue were entered at show in the UK, it would have to be judged.

[tasha]

leslie my comment was factual with regard to their being a breeder in the UK and in France not however any comment regarding my opinion as to whether you are a good or a bad breeder, so I hope you don't take offense to my comment.

I think something to note is that although there is a blue background in some countries because of american imports, it does not effect the whole breed program only a small minority. With time that will increase but it is possible even at this stage if the UK decided unanimously not to breed with dogs that have these lines it could be easily irradicated from our breed program.

The benefit of pedigree databases especially ones like Sylvia's & Marjoleins where ALL the data is being collected is that information is more freely available to breeders so that they can at the touch of a button and with a little time and patience trace the lines of their dogs and remove to the best of their ability those with the rogue element. Given the choice I know that 'some' and call them purists if you want will be interested in keeping their lines blue free.

[anne]

tasha said:

The benefit of pedigree databases especially ones like Sylvia's & Marjoleins where ALL the data is being collected is that information is more freely available to breeders so that they can at the touch of a button and with a little time and patience trace the lines of their dogs and remove to the best of their ability those with the rogue element. Given the choice I know that 'some' and call them purists if you want will be interested in keeping their lines blue free.

Certainly. And of course it's those people's perogative to use or not use certain dogs. I wouldn't use a dog that wasn't proven in hunting, for instance. That doesn't mean that I bash dogs that aren't out there proving their hunting ability, and I certainly don't rant about show dogs not being true Weimaraners (although in some sense I do believe that).

Going back to the idea of choices and the freedom we have in the US. I expect reputable breeders to interpret the standard and operate within their vision of the ideal Weim. If some people feel that blues are pure and choose to use them, then so be it. The standard (FCI included) is loose enough to allow for it IMO. If others don't want to, that's fine too. It is not really necessary to bash all blues or make silly comments about rainbow colors. I really don't mind it as I know that I have done my research and I feel confident in that, but as we are all stewards of the breed, I feel it is irresponsible not to portray history as accurately as possible. And if one makes inflammatory statements, be prepared to defend it, and discuss views intelligently, not just post inflammatory statements for the heck of it. I like that not all breeders have the same view of the ideal Weim. It's that vision and the artistry of breeding, and to some extent the freedom of being able to take risks (or use rogue elements as you call it) that can often produce greatness (and often disaster too). And if I am argumentative, it is because I feel it's important to present the "other side" for people to make up their own minds. It's our duty to the newer people in the breed to have an intelligent discourse about these things IMO.

[lizgundog]

Daniela,
We have the same structure in Australia, whilst we breed and judge to the FCI standard we do not have disqualification - this would become an interesting case. I remember a Labrador being shown that was brindle a few years ago, the judge placed the dog last in it's class (all that could be done).
The labrador people then spoke to the person who had purchased the dog and I believe it was never shown again. The Labrador Club also had several discussions with the ANKC and the breeder.
If the German's wanted us to have Blue weimaraners then they would have them - from my understanding of the German Klub e.v. and the German breeders if they had thought Casar was a good dog he would never have been sold to the U.S. all those years ago. It would be nice to have input from the German Klub on many of our discussions but I know it won't happen. I recently had dinner with a "AAA" weimaraner judge from Germany, he will not and is not allowed to participate in forum's. I do agree with Anne that the show ring isn't the be all and end all of dog breeding, but I do believe that we have guide lines that were set down hundreds of years ago and we should strive to achieve these guide lines.
Lizgundog

[lizgundog]

Lois,
I have never been advised of a blue in Australia, I think if there had been we certainly would know about it. However, if someone bred one here I don't think it would be bred from, we certainly have too small a population (i.e.dogs ) to keep something like that quiet. Someone would see one out walking and then the whole australian dog world would know about it.
Liz

[anne]

Liz,

I asked on a German Weim forum about Blues, and the impression I got was it just doesn't even cross their minds. Blues are not breedable there "legally" and therefore it's a non-issue. That's what I got, albeit it was just from one group on a forum.

I believe the culture here in the US and elsewhere is quite different when it comes to dogs and breedings. I think Americans are more willing to change breeds to suit American needs. We have seen that in the field dogs being adapted for hunting here, for instance. I also see it with the show bred dogs. Those dogs look quite different from pictures I've seen of German dogs. I also think there is a culture here in the US where we tend to be independent, we did create our own breed standard. And that standard did say blues were allowed at one time. I understand the idea that many have that we need to follow the German's vision of the dogs. I espeically agree with that in terms of their insistence that function is first, looks second. I was very pleased when I saw such emphasis placed on it when I read Petri's Der Weimaraner Vorstehhund. Incidentally, the 1944 American standard that specifically named blue as an acceptable color also put this in their preamble: "It is not the purpose of the Weimaraner Club of America to sacrifice the basic hunting instincts of the breed to bench performance. The objective in breeding is the maintenance of those qualities which have made the Weimaraner outstanding as a hunting dog." This comment to me resonates of what I see the Germans saying about their Weimaraners. So not to go off on a tangent, but my point isn't that I disagree with the Germans or think that only the American way is right. I just think that because we as a whole may be bigger risk-takers and not so into strict interpretations of the standard, that allowed American breeders to breed world class dogs. American dogs today have quite an influence in other countries. It's ironic when someone posts about America being the land of mutts when our dogs have this kind of influence.

Anne

[Leslie]

lizgundog said:

from my understanding of the German Klub e.v. and the German breeders if they had thought Casar was a good dog he would never have been sold to the U.S. all those years ago.

By this reasoning ALL dogs imported from Germany would be inferior. ergo ALL Weims in America, England, etc are sub-standard Weim's.

[Leslie]

tasha said:

leslie my comment was factual with regard to their being a breeder in the UK and in France not however any comment regarding my opinion as to whether you are a good or a bad breeder, so I hope you don't take offense to my comment.

Tasha, I thought you were probably commenting on the breeder in England, but not everyone has followed the same forum threads we have both been on, and someone not reading very carefully could construe from that sentence that I was also breeding for novelty and profit. "Here" could have referred to Europe and not just England so I felt it was important clarify.

I know I will get flak for being a blue breeder, but breeding for profit is not my sin. In fact, this year, even with a large waiting list for pups, I've decided it's more important to spend time training and competing with my dogs - so no pups this year.

[lizgundog]

I think we need to re visit where all this is going, why do we need to clarify what is happening regarding blue coloured Weimaraners when obviously no one is intending to breed just an all blue litter?
Liz

[tasha]

I prefer to go with the originating countries breed standard rather than an interpretation of one for the various different countries because we all have different agenda's, the Germans are known for their attention to detail and record keeping where they strive for the best and I believe that has continued. They do not recognise the blue weimaraner and the UK standard states the accepted colours, blue is not included.

I suppose although the blue has had a large impact on champions something to remember is that it has been down to a judges personal interpretation of a good weimaraner. A true test would be for one of those champions to gain its qualifications and entry into the german breed program.

[lizgundog]

"By this reasoning ALL dogs imported from Germany would be inferior. ergo ALL Weims in America, England, etc are sub-standard Weim's. "


Leslie I think you will find that the statement you made is true in regard to dogs sold to Americans and the English immediately prior to and after the second world war, you have to understand the full history of the breed in Germany at that time. There were so few weimaraners for the 10 years after the War and I quote from Dr. Petri's "Der Weimaraner Vorstehunde" - in regard to the German stud book - Until 1936 the yearly litters vary between 8 and 19 and the number of registered pups between 44 & 105. A record number of litters in 1938 - 21 and 112 pups registered. in 1945 there were only 3 litters with 10 pups entered. Even in 1938 in order for Howard Knight to obtain and breed a litter he had to join the German Klub e.v."
Gillian Burgoin, who was a close friend of Major Petty and Colonel Richardson (imported first Weis into U.K. in 1952), told me in a phone conversation in 2005, that of the 13 dogs imported into the U.K. from Germany, only 8 were considered even good enough to breed from. This is why I made the statement that if 'Casar' had been a high quality Weimaraner he wouldn't have been sold out of the country. I hope this clarifies what I meant. I know things have changed considerably in the last 20 or so years with the Germans, I think you will find that it is through selective breeding in the last 50 years that the quality of the Weimaraner has improved world wide.

Liz

[lizgundog]

I have just re read an important passage in Dr. Petri's book which was written whilst he was breed warden for the German Weimaraner Klub e.v. and in possession of all german breeding stud books. He has written the following (and I now Anne has a copy of this book so she is aware of this paragraph). "In the year 1949 there is an important entry: a 1,0 litter "v.Gaiberg" (Casar vom Gaiberg). The annotation is typed: "Casar has, according to word received on 20.6.1949 from Herrn Keullmer, the following characteristics: black tinge, ears rather short, eyes not a clear amber colour". After that follows a hand written note which, doubting the reliability of the breeder, says: "Verdict: Useless for breeding as probably cross-breed with Dobermann". this dog was later on exported to the USA and is supposed to have become the ancestral father of the so-called "blue" Weimaraner, which, however, is even there still disputed."
Liz

[tasha]

well the rumours had to come from somewhere and we do see peached dogs in the weimaraner that are similarly marked to the dobermann. It would also explain how the blue from two grey dogs was achieved when it has not been possible in any other mating.

[anne]

lizgundog said:

I have just re read an important passage in Dr. Petri's book which was written whilst he was breed warden for the German Weimaraner Klub e.v. and in possession of all german breeding stud books. He has written the following (and I now Anne has a copy of this book so she is aware of this paragraph). "In the year 1949 there is an important entry: a 1,0 litter "v.Gaiberg" (Casar vom Gaiberg). The annotation is typed: "Casar has, according to word received on 20.6.1949 from Herrn Keullmer, the following characteristics: black tinge, ears rather short, eyes not a clear amber colour". After that follows a hand written note which, doubting the reliability of the breeder, says: "Verdict: Useless for breeding as probably cross-breed with Dobermann". this dog was later on exported to the USA and is supposed to have become the ancestral father of the so-called "blue" Weimaraner, which, however, is even there still disputed."
Liz

This is re-quoted in Weimaraner Ways which has a pretty good synopsis of the Blue controversy.

On my page about the various theories of how the blue Weim came into being, I discuss this. It's a strong argument.

I also think there's good reason to believe that the Germans didn't send their best dogs out, especially since it's well documented that there were so few of them at the time. However, it may well be that the only fault that Casar had was his unusual color, which made him undesirable and thus suitable for export. We don't know when that doberman cross comment was entered into the books nor who wrote it.... the early comments have been consistent however about his color and shorter ear. From American accounts of those that saw the dog, he was a pretty nice dog. Holt, the man who bought him, passed up his gray brother because he thought that Casar was put together better and as horse guy he knew conformation.

The chair of WCA meeting/interview on Casar back in 1950 commented on his conformation: "And I can say that he is lighter than I thought he was in eye, definitely. My criticism of him is that he lacks depth of muzzle… Now, in body, he has got a much better shoulder than a great number of Weimaraners… I consider that he has a good line, as I remember it. I consider that he has a reasonable amount of spring of rib. He is a trifle high in breast, though not bad, better than a lot of them. He has got straight legs, front legs, pretty good, way above the average in feet, and that his hind quarters are straight, and there is ample angulation, again better than most, and that his rear quarters are straight."

Since Holt was a hunter, he was more concerned about conformation related to performance. He says that the gray brother was sickle-hocked which is a "demerit" for a working dog and ear length is not. Obviously coat color fell under the same category not a structural fault but a fancy point fault. Holt insisted in the 192 page interview with the WCA that Casar was mouse gray.

Casar was used by prominent breeders of the time (that comes to me from the WCA historian in addition to just looking at pedigrees). Homer Carr himself a big breeder back then (who did not prefer the blue color but used him for his field ability and bucketed the blues) mentions an "unusually large number of the silver-gray descendants of the blue dogs have won top honors as American bench-show and field-trial winners." Casar was only 3 generations back from Ord who was the 2nd Weim in history to win a BIS and was also BOB at Westminster etc. Casar himself was show pointed. All this to say, he couldn't have been that horrible.

As I said, all arguments are well supported.