Blue in Australia

[anne]

Tasha,

tasha said:

well the rumours had to come from somewhere and we do see peached dogs in the weimaraner that are similarly marked to the dobermann.

If "peached dogs" means doberman marked dogs, you are way off base. (And now I know you haven't read my website LOL!)

The 1935 German standard (well before Casar was ever born) talks about dobe-marked Weims. It was common from long ago.

tasha said:

It would also explain how the blue from two grey dogs was achieved when it has not been possible in any other mating.

How so?

Mutations happen all the time.... (I'm not saying that that is necessarily how it happened, but as I said earlier, lots of theories can be well argued.)

[Leslie]

lizgundog said:

"By this reasoning ALL dogs imported from Germany would be inferior. ergo ALL Weims in America, England, etc are sub-standard Weim's. "


Leslie I think you will find that the statement you made is true in regard to dogs sold to Americans and the English immediately prior to and after the second world war, you have to understand the full history of the breed in Germany at that time.

Liz, I am aware of the history of the breed and I was being a bit sassy & playful with my response (thus the smiley), but it was just to point out that- that comment would then be true of many of the descendants of those first imported weims, so that argument can't be used exclusively on Casar. And as Anne points out, why did Casar produce so well if he was a cross-breed or substandard?

In regards to the hand-written comment about Casar, it's very unclear when that was added. It appears that when the German's sold Casar, there was no question about his validity and then later there was. If you thoroughly read the history of the controversy of Casar, you'll find that there are equally compelling arguments for questioning that comment. As Anne says, we will never really know the truth because each side has compelling evidence. There are a lot of things unexplained including why were the terms Blue and Mouse Gray used interchangeably? Why did the 1944 American standard include Blue?

[daniela]

I was wondering whether there are any more pictures of Casar in circulation? I have been to Anne’s website and seen the standing shot there but was wondering whether there are any more?

I never really thought about it before but now that this subject has come up, comparing Casar’s picture with the picture(s) of our first imports and some of their resulting offspring, there is, what I would call, a ‘type’ difference.

There is, to the best of my knowledge, three years difference between the dates of birth of Casar and our first imports and looking at pictures, our imports look shorter in leg, longer backed, stockier, with larger skulls. Casar, on the other hand looks more elegant and has cleaner lines. I can see the lack of depth in his muzzle and he does have shorter ears. Did the AKC standard always allow ears to be 2 inches from the nose or ……….?

I realise I can only judge from the few pictures available and my interpretations will be different from others but merely as an observation, there does appear to be a difference in type.

On another note, does anyone know what happened to the number of English exports to the US in 1956, 1957, 1958 and 1959? Were they the foundation stock for any US kennels or did they disappear into the ether?

[weima]

tasha said:

I could give you a list of some of the best kennels in the uk that have a blue in their dogs.

Go on then

[Leslie]

daniela said:

I was wondering whether there are any more pictures of Casar in circulation? I have been to Anne’s website and seen the standing shot there but was wondering whether there are any more?

There's another one here, although not a very good one.
www.weim.net/twn/General/blue-weim.htm
By the way, anyone arguing about Blue Weim's should have at least read this article.

<snip from the article>... to say nothing of Ch. Von Gaiberg's Ord, the second dog in Weimaraner history ever to win the Best Dog in Show award at an all-breed A.K.C. show in the continental United States. Ord, the grandson and great-grandson of blue dogs also went Best of Breed at the 1957 national Specialty Show of the Weimaraner Club of America, the largest Weimaraner show every held with 114 entries. Ord also went Best of Breed at the 1957 show of the Westminster Kennel Club, held at Madison Square Garden, New York City. A truly remarkable record. He is an outstanding hunter and retriever.

The blue descendants of C?sar von Gaiberg have also distinguished themselves for their excellent physical conformation and superb hunting ability. They have received less public acclaim than their silver-gray brothers, not only because of the vicious smear campaign, which has been conducted continuously against them, but also because the present Weimaraner standards classifies the blue color as a fault. Among the outstanding blue descendants of C?sar von Gaiberg are Ch. C?sar's Jobuc and Greta von Grafenstein who now has to her credit one five-point, one three-point and two two-point show wins, all of which have been awarded to her within the last two years, by some of America's most respected, famous and competent all-around judges, such as Isadore Schoenberg, Percy Roberts and Hans Oberhammer. The respected all-around American judge, Dr. A.A. Mitten, has stated in correspondence that during the years 1912 to 1914 he acted as judge in several dog shows in Germany and that at those shows he saw several highly regarded Weimaraners of the same general shade as C?sar von Gaiberg, whom he judged at Waterloo, Iowa in 1950.

Also:
www.weim.net/twn/General/Standard_Revisions.htm

[Leslie]

This is barely visible, but it comes from Casar's registration papers. The file is from the bluebanshee site. Looks like it is from a photocopy?

[daniela]

Thanks for the link and the extra picture.

I can see the resemblance in the one from Anne's site and the picture from the other link you kindly sent but this image of him, the photocopy, he looks different or maybe it's just me!?

I would say from this one, although it is hard to tell from pictures let alone a photocopy, he appears more similar in type to our early imports in the UK.

[Sylvia]

lnicole said:

This is barely visible, but it comes from Casar's registration papers. The file is from the bluebanshee site. Looks like it is from a photocopy?

That picture is on every pedigree back in that time. That was standard at a pedigree.

[daniela]

Out of interest, do you know whether it was a prerequisite for the VDH to have a picture(s) of the dog on the registration certificate? I haven't seen any on microfiche in the Kennel Club archives from our early imports.

[daniela]

Thanks Sylvia, you beat me to it Hmm, I guess it could only appear on the pedigree and not the registration certificate, that would explain why I have not seen them on microfiche.

[daniela]

sylvia said:

lnicole said:

This is barely visible, but it comes from Casar's registration papers. The file is from the bluebanshee site. Looks like it is from a photocopy?

That picture is on every pedigree back in that time. That was standard at a pedigree.

Oh hang on a minute, are you saying the same image appeared on every Weimaraner pedigree back then? A kind of 'generic' image of a Weimaraner just for illustration purposes?

[tasha]

He does look different but its always hard to tell the difference in a dog between sitting and standing, its impossible to tell colour gradients from a black and white photo especially from that period because they are hand developed. I have a picture of bonnie in similar positions and she is often mistaken for a different dog.

I have a few pictures of early blue weimaraners that featured on the covers of magasines or in articles and the difference is stunning, you would expect after so many years for the qualities to have been overlapped and watered down by the number of non blue decendant weimaraners in each generation, so it is not surprising that there have been a number of champions from casars lines.

If you look at the dobermann they have a strong structure that is muscular how different is that structure besides head, & colour to the weimaraner?? Would any structural differences be that easy to spot?

[tasha]

That does explain the picture difference.

[Sylvia]

It looks like it is this dog on the pedigree:

[daniela]

So it is a generic image used on all pedigrees back in the day, Sylvia?

[Sylvia]

daniela said:

So it is a generic image used on all pedigrees back in the day, Sylvia?

Yes it is, I have some other coppies of Pedigrees out of the 30's and 40's and it is the same picture.
Also the cover of the Stammbuch from 1937 shows the same picture.

[daniela]

That's amazing. Had we not had this discussion, we may never have known. Do you know what dog it is by any chance?

[daniela]

Definitely a dog born before 1937 that's for sure

[Sylvia]

daniela said:

That's amazing. Had we not had this discussion, we may never have known. Do you know what dog it is by any chance?

I don't know (yet) which dog it is. Born before 1937 but that is what you founded out as well LOL. Maybe I will find out, it must have been a welknown dog, mostly they publish pictures of wellknown dogs.
I already compared to some others out of that time, but so far he doesn't look like any of them.

[daniela]

Well he looks like a young dog, he reminds of a picture I have seen of a bitch called Skyrose Typhoon who was around in the '50s.