Tail Docking

[Wetdog]

There are several countries in Europe that now prohibit tail docking. What countries are they?
Do they also prohibit ear cropping. What about removal of dew claws? What about other types of cosmetic surgery? Who determines whether surgery is cosmetic or necessary? For instance, debarking?
What are your thoughts on this?

[marjolein]

I'm against alternating anything of a dog. It's not allowed either in Holland, unless there is a need to. I think the vet can determine whether it's mecessary or not.

[daniela]

Docking and dewclaw removal are still legal procedures here providing they are carried out by a qualified veterinary surgeon.

Ear cropping has been banned here since 1898 and no dog can be shown here in the UK with cropped ears.

[syrinx]

We have had a tail docking ban here in my state in Oz for about 18 months. My litter was born 2 weeks later and I left the tail on the SH. She constantly opens up the tip and splatters blood everywhere. It is obviously sore as she won't let you touch it, really. But she hasn't broken it, and the damage doesn't warrant a general to take off the tail on a non-show girl. Do you know one of the arguments they used here to get the law passed was that docking can/does cause incontinence?? What a load of rubbish! Having four docked ones, I should be swimming by now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL!
Wendy

[marjolein]

No Wendy, that is not rubbish. It is proven that the largest group of incontinent dogs, are medium sized dogs with docked tails. It's a study done by our vet uni.

[daniela]

Hi Marjolein

Do you know where I can see a copy of their report, it must have been published?

To be honest, I do find it hard to believe but I like to think I have an enquiring mind, so would be really interested to read the report. Is it online?

[marjolein]

Will try to find it for you Daniela. It only states you find the most cases of incontinence in medium sized, docked dogs btw. They haven't found an explanation for this phenomenon.

[daniela]

Oh yes, if you find it please let me know - I'm intrigued.

I'll do a google search too.

[daniela]

Apologies in advance if this sounds like a stupid question but I have always wondered, if the tail is an extension of the dog's spine, when puppies are docked why do they not become paralysed?

[marjolein]

From the point where the spine is damaged down, they get paralysed. And since the tail is removed anyway, you won't notice.

[daniela]

Sorry, I don't understand, what do you mean exactly?

[marjolein]

Difficult to explain in another language. When the spine is damaged, only the part after the damage will be paralysed. Since the spine goes from head to tail, only the part to the tail will be damaged, and not the part to the head.

[daniela]

Difficult to explain in another language.

I can imagine, I admire that you can do it!

When the spine is damaged, only the part after the damage will be paralysed. Since the spine goes from head to tail, only the part to the tail will be damaged, and not the part to the head.

Still not quite sure I really understand that. Why does it not affect or paralyse the dog if it is an extension of the spine? The part removed is redundant or dead but not what I would call paralysed because it no longer has anything to power it.

Sorry for the questions, I know it must be difficult to write in another language but it's certainly a question that swims around in my head quite a bit.

[marjolein]

Yes, it does affect the spine and if the tail wouldn't be removed, it would be paralysed, but only from the part where the damage took place.

I couldn't found much info about docking and incontinence, but I found a report, written by vets which says what I said:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8236712&dopt=Abstract

[ralph]

Let me try,


It has to do with the brain, the spine and the nerves running through the spine.
The brain sends an electrical pulse through the nerves, pulse reaches a muscle and the muscle moves.

let's pretend the brains are a delivery company
Let's pretend the spine and the nerves in it is a highway
let's pretend the little nerves through the muscles etc are backroads.
let's pretend the electrical pulses are the cars with a package in it.

The Boss of the deliverycompany says "Go and deliver this package in the tail"
There we go over the highway, to the tail.The car drives to the tail and what does he see? A roadblock.
He can't go any further (cause the tail is docked), he cannot deliver the package there.

However, the rest of the roads and backroads, between the company and the tail are freely reachable. The only roadblock is in the tail.
When you translate that back to pulse and nerves you will surely see that everything except the tail is reachable for the pulses. Therefore everything between the brain and the docked section of the tail is movable.
That's the reason puppy's don't get paralized after tail docking. The highway and backroads are free of roadblocks.

When I read this story back, it appears a bit childish, but keep in mind that i don't want to patronize anybody. Just tried to make it a bit grafic.

gr. Ralph

[Wetdog]

Do you know one of the arguments they used here to get the law passed was that docking can/does cause incontinence?? What a load of rubbish! Having four docked ones, I should be swimming by now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL!
Wendy

I've had Dobermans for over twenty five years--about 350 altogether. Of that number, I've never had a single one that had an incontinence problem that could not be attributed to an acquired medical condition.
At the same time I also had other breeds that are commonly tail docked, including Rottweillers, Smooth Fox Terriers, Airedales, and others and I never had any incontinence problem with any tail docked breed.
I also had dogs of breeds that are not docked, German Shepherds(which I still have), Siberian Husky, Malamute, Golden Retriever, Afghan, and many others, and I never noticed any difference between breeds concerning tail docking/not docking and incontinence.
I DID notice a huge difference in the rate at which I was consulted for incontinence according to breed however. If you sort incontinence problems according to breed, you will find that it is a problem only in certain breeds, primarily Cocker Spaniels(American) (docked), Poodles(undocked), Shih Tzu(mixed), Miniature Pinschers(docked), Llassa Apso(undocked), and to a far less extent other breeds.
In short--submissive incontinence is in my opinion primarily genetic in origin and can be found in both in breeds that are both docked and undocked--and the frequency of incontinence as a result of abuse or neglect is also not a factor in whether the tail is docked or undocked. As a trainer, expected to correct an incontinence problem, I of coarse had to be able to know what the problem is. Almost invariably I was able to correct the problem by two methods-the first was a failure on the part of the owners to housetrain properly which accounted for the vast majority of the problems, and the secondary problem being excessively dominant behavior on the part of household members. Genetics is also easily recognizable in certain breeds such as Cocker Spaniels. I never considered a docked tail to be a factor in handling the problem.
Of the studies I've seen attempting to relate docking/not docking of tails to incontinence problems, it seems to me to be matter of attempts to try to make statistics fit into preconceived expectations of what the author expects the results should show. In other words, excluding other important factors in analyzing methodology.
After 150 years of purebred dog breeding, wouldn't the breeders/owners of breeds that are commonly tail docked have noticed an increased rate of incontinence? Would they continue dock if it meant that they would have greatly increased problems of maintaining incontinent dogs in their households?

[greyflyte]

A slightly different angle on it from me.

Owners of purebred docked breeds are PERHAPS more likely to seek vet opinion on incontinence than the average non docked mongrel...
Cyd

[marjolein]

Fred, you're confusing two things here. You are talking about dogs that pee in the house, which is NOT incontinence. Incontinence, is a dog that leaks urine and not realising it. This has nothing to do with housetraining.
Small dogs are unlike to become incontinent, medium sized dogs however are more prone. Unfortunately, Weimaraners are on the list of dogs that are quite prone to urine incontinence.
We don't have many incontinent dogs in our practice, but the ones that are incontinent, are medium sized and up (100%). I think 65% of this number is docked.
I don't take small dogs with hernia's in this count btw. This has another reason obviously.
Maybe we see more incontinence in dogs nowadays cause a lot of dogs are speyed? As we all know, speyed dogs are more prone to become incontinent than non-speyed ones and maybe docking would only make things worse??? Am just guessing here though.

[Wetdog]

I'm not really argueing here Marjolein--more like agreeing to disagree.
We are looking at the same thing and coming to different conclusions.

For one thing--I don't think there is any medical reason why medium to large size dogs should be any more OR less prone to incontinence medically than small dogs---other than perhaps, it is a more noticable problem to the owners because of the volume of urine?

You are indeed correct in stateing that training and over excitement, or over submission are NOT medical conditions. However, of the studies I've seen, the data used was for admission complaints--NOT diagnosed medical conditions. The owners brought the dogs in because they were urinating in what THEY THOUGHT was inappropriate manner, which is not same as sorting according to diagnosis by the veterinarian or by outcome. I've also never seen any data for whether dogs in the studies actually WERE or WERE NOT docked, only that they were of a breed that is commonly docked. For instance, if you brought Mowgli in to a clinic here, he'd be counted as tail docked because most Weimaraners here are docked--regardless of the fact that he is not. It also does not account for mixed breeds because there is no convention to include them in the protocol, and mixed breeds account for far greater numbers of admissions than purebreds.

[Alkemist]

What really gets me is that in the UK it is legal for the breeder (well anyone) to remove dewclaws, but not band the tails - and I didn't like watching the dewclaws being removed at all.
I am a bit split on this issue as I recently saw a litter of rottweiler pups docked very badly - some were bob-tailed and one of them may have to have the tip cleaned / trimmed under anaesthetic. They all needed antibiotics. I think that the situation in many countries at the moment is unworkable - they either need to ban it or allow it, no cloak and dagger stuff like it is in the UK now.

Any dog that is KC registered and shown and undergoes any surgical operation should, according to KC rules, apply for permission to show, and submit a veterinary certificate to the KC to show that the operation was not for cosmetic reasons.......

Nina