Heads?

[Irena]

I've been wondering, looking at different pictures and dogs, what is a typical "Weimaraner" head?

Are there different types too, according to the different "types" overall in Weims?

What do you consider to be important features of the head? (Apart from the brains! ;D )

How high does the head rank among all other "parts" of Weimaraner? (e.g. Rough Collies are as I understand a "head" breed)

Pictures or links would be absolutely invaluable.

[Kobie]

Hi Irena,

Bill's head is very often a issue for breed specialists. His head is possably the best 'exteriour' property of our male according to many breed 'specialists'.

Take a look:

[Irena]

Thank you Kobie!! I love the first pic!

[daniela]

To my mind, I really love this bitch's head:

euroweims.proboards44.com/index.cgi?action=userrecentposts&user=lucie

Head preference is SO subjective. I guess it's a bit like how we consider people on the outside: plain, pretty, beautiful, or dare I say, ugly. LOL.

I guess the biggest deviation that springs to mind when thinking about your questions Irena, was two litter siblings that we bred. One had such a lovely head, her head properties were balanced, she had beautiful pigment, amber eyes, flew, correct length of ear and yet her sister, whilst could be deemed as pretty, she had a lower earset, which didn't give her that aristocratic look nor did she have the depth of flew that her sister had making her look somewhat 'snipey'.

Bless!

[simona]

Just a short add, my puppies wanted to eat again ) . I think it wouldnt be very objective ;D I just HATE lymfatic heads like mastifs or great dane. We have a lot of these there. When I was on spring with my young male on show where judged Mr. Petri he was very pleased about his head despite young age of Drake. He sayed: "typical, very masculine but completly "dry", hard male expression in eyes"

Drakes head here. He is still so young. I had to wait another year to see how he will look completely. I know it cause of my older dog - Merlin, he was build in body in 15 months but head in 3 years

Here is drakes head in 8 months


here 15 months


And now one of mastif heads which are my own nightmare


Just short of standard -
LIPS - mild pendent
FACE - dry head

I had to agree that with Irena and Kobie that Bill has on first picture very nice typical weimi head

[ralph]

I know i'm very, very, very prejudiced, but it should look like this. Mind you, we're talking about bitches here, a dog can be a bit more chequered.



and just for fun she winked at me

[simona]

Ralph I just think - please dont mind! Its just look on the first picutre. That on weimi she has little big bigger "stop" It should be milder. But maybe its just point of view from which is taken )

[daniela]

Dare I suggest it, but perhaps 'heads' is a good theme for a future photo contest?

[ralph]

Simona,
offcourse i don't mind
taste is a very personal thing you known, but in my opinion if the "stop" becomes a littlebit milder you get a very snipey dog. That is if the lips are staying the same.
It,s a little bitch this one, but i think her head is one of her strong points.
Her head is always "highlited" by the judges in her show-reports (positively that is).

gr. Ralph

[simona]

I believe you Ralph I have just seen so much untypey heads and its one of thing which I realyl dislike on weimis. As one of my teachers for weimaraners said: weimaraner is difrenet of any other pointers mainly in body format and head. Head is quite diffrent then GSP and so on

[Irena]

Something from the FCI standard:

Proportions of the head : From tip of nose to stop slightly longer than from stop to occiput.

HEAD

CRANIAL REGION :
Skull : In balance with size of body and facial region. Broader in dogs than bitches, yet in both, the relationship between width of cranial region to total length of head must be in good proportion. Median groove on forehead. Slightly to moderately protruding occipital bone. Zygomatic arches easily traceable behind the eyes.
Stop : Extremely slight.

FACIAL REGION :
Nose : Nose leather large, protruding over the underjaw. Dark flesh colour, merging gradually into gray towards the rear.
Muzzle : Long and, specially in the male, powerful, appearing almost angular. Region of canines and carnassial teeth equally strong. Bridge of nose straight, often slightly arched, never with a concave curve.
Flews : Moderately deep, flesh coloured, as are the gums. Slight labial corner.
Jaws/Teeth : Jaws strong; teeth complete, regular and strong. Top and bottom incisors closely touching (scissor bite).
Cheeks : Muscular, clearly defined. Definitely « clean » head.
Eyes : Amber colour, dark to pale, with intelligent expression. Sky-blue in puppies. Round, set barely slanting. Lids well fitting.
Leathers : Lobular, broad and fairly long, just reaching to corner of mouth. Set on high and narrow, forming a rounded off point at tip. In alterness, turned slightly forward, folded.
----------------------------------------------

Ralph, can it really be that a less pronounced stop contributes to the snipey look?

[ralph]

admin said:

Ralph, can it really be that a less pronounced stop contributes to the snipey look?

YES i think so, but as i said before, a pronounced stop in it self doesnot contribute to a snipey look, in combination with not much lip it does.
Just my opinion though, i'm not an exterior specialist.

gr. Ralph

[simona]

Hallo Irena. A lot of people are little bit shocked when they ready standard properly. When I imported Drake everybody loves his body but wasnt sure about his head, cause we have here many and many of "mastifs" and big stops. They sayed he has bad head. O.K. I take if for one time, two times, but one nice day my patience ended I take to the show printed stantdard and when they started again cheated and claim things which arent right I take it the standard and describe on one dog - he has absolutely different head then is written in standard and then from part to part applied to Drake head. Then they had! to say (offcourse no everyone, you know people ) , that I was write. Cause they judged Drake and dogs with this type heads (like Liam - father of my B litter) just cause of their taste but not about standard. I cannot change someone taste and I didnt wanted!But before someone started to sayed somethihg it will be better to read the standard again to refresh. Its the same with bodyformat. A lot of weimaraners from USA which I saw on photos are quadratic

admin said:

Something from the FCI standard:

Proportions of the head : From tip of nose to stop slightly longer than from stop to occiput.

HEAD

CRANIAL REGION :
Skull : In balance with size of body and facial region. Broader in dogs than bitches, yet in both, the relationship between width of cranial region to total length of head must be in good proportion. Median groove on forehead. Slightly to moderately protruding occipital bone. Zygomatic arches easily traceable behind the eyes.
Stop : Extremely slight.

FACIAL REGION :
Nose : Nose leather large, protruding over the underjaw. Dark flesh colour, merging gradually into gray towards the rear.
Muzzle : Long and, specially in the male, powerful, appearing almost angular. Region of canines and carnassial teeth equally strong. Bridge of nose straight, often slightly arched, never with a concave curve.
Flews : Moderately deep, flesh coloured, as are the gums. Slight labial corner.
Jaws/Teeth : Jaws strong; teeth complete, regular and strong. Top and bottom incisors closely touching (scissor bite).
Cheeks : Muscular, clearly defined. Definitely « clean » head.
Eyes : Amber colour, dark to pale, with intelligent expression. Sky-blue in puppies. Round, set barely slanting. Lids well fitting.
Leathers : Lobular, broad and fairly long, just reaching to corner of mouth. Set on high and narrow, forming a rounded off point at tip. In alterness, turned slightly forward, folded.
----------------------------------------------

Ralph, can it really be that a less pronounced stop contributes to the snipey look?

[anne]

I like a good head, but I don't consider the Weim a "head breed." I don't really think the standard is clear on what the appropriate head is either, lots open to interpretation if you ask me (both FCI and AKC standard below)

Head
Moderately long and aristocratic, with moderate stop and slight median line extending back over the forehead. Rather prominent occipital bone and trumpets well set back, beginning at the back of the eye sockets. Measurement from tip of nose to stop equals that from stop to occipital bone. The flews should be straight, delicate at the nostrils. Skin drawn tightly. Neck clean-cut and moderately long. Expression kind, keen and intelligent. Ears--Long and lobular, slightly folded and set high. The ear when drawn snugly alongside the jaw should end approximately 2 inches from the point of the nose. Eyes--In shades of light amber, gray or blue-gray, set well enough apart to indicate good disposition and intelligence. When dilated under excitement the eyes may appear almost black. Teeth--Well set, strong and even; well-developed and proportionate to jaw with correct scissors bite, the upper teeth protruding slightly over the lower teeth but not more than 1/16 of an inch. Complete dentition is greatly to be desired. Nose--Gray. Lips and Gums--Pinkish flesh shades.

[anne]

simona said:

A lot of weimaraners from USA which I saw on photos are quadratic

Can you explain what this means?

[simona]

Offcourse I can
I have seen a lot of really short weimaraners on USA pics, I havent been there on shows I just have a photos. I can posted here some. I mean that weimaraner should be the longest poiting dog from 7 group and very often he isnt and is long as is high= quarte.
About head I was talking about FCI standard which I think its originally one. A lot of breeds were changed in America in their own style and I am not a fan of it. Despite that I have seen very nice american specimes and one would like to use for breeding, if everything will go on

anne said:

simona said:

A lot of weimaraners from USA which I saw on photos are quadratic

Can you explain what this means?

[greydove]

simona said:

A lot of weimaraners from USA which I saw on photos are quadratic

What on earth is QUADRATIC?

Narelle

[Irena]

greydove said:

simona said:

A lot of weimaraners from USA which I saw on photos are quadratic

What on earth is QUADRATIC?

Narelle

Narelle, may I remind you that ours being an international board and covering most European countries, by far not ALL people's native language is English, and not everyone has the time to sit down with a dictionary. But of course everyone is always entitled to politely enquire what someone means. I believe Simona means "square".

[ralph]

anne said:

I like a good head, but I don't consider the Weim a "head breed." I don't really think the standard is clear on what the appropriate head is either, lots open to interpretation if you ask me (both FCI and AKC standard below)

.

amen

gr. Ralph

[Irena]

Thanks a lot everyone for your input so far! Great points.

Maybe it's weird but one of the crucial points for me seems to be intelligent expression? I always pay attention to that somehow.

Here are some that I like.
Male from Russia

(same one)


Female, imp. Czech republic


(The two above - may not my favourite "type" of Weim, but I love their heads)

Female, again in Russia (under 12 months of age in this pic):


And a male in Greece (Am/Aust lines):

This was taken when he was about 10 months old, I believe, will be interesting to see how he develops, but I love his expression, and everything else, in this picture.