American vs. European Lines

[weimslover]

This is my first post so I thought I would fill you in on our dogs. We own two imports Brit ( Britfeld Winsome Lady JH NSD) and Kye (Britfeld Yesterdays Dream) who is a top 10 derby field dog. We also own a very nicely bred dog Sage (Silver Rain Gold Rush Rider) who was also a Top 10 Derby dog. Sage is out the field trial legend - NFC FC AFC Westend Lil Sage Rider SH CGC CD NSD NRD V and some great Valmars show lines. Brit was bred last year to NFC NAFC FC AFC Grau Geist Gust V Westend MH CD SDX RDX VX and we have a couple of young dogs from that breeding who are doing quite well already in field trials. They will do some showing in the field trail off season.
Kye and Brit both have show points with Kye being almost half way to his show title. We have had many great comments about our imports but also a few negative ones as well.
My biggest complaint about our judges here in the U.S. is their lack of caring if the dog can work in the field. Many would much rather put up a dog that is 2 inches over breed standard than a well put together dog with solid conformation but is at the low end of breed standard. We understand that everyone has their preference but we beleive a Weimaraner should be able to hunt and have excellent conformation as well.
We have felt the wrath of a select few U.S. breeders who think the sun rises and sets on their show lines. Thank God for people like Anne and Regen Weimaraners who are part of this board and care about the dual purpose Weimaraner. IMO we need to find a happy medium in the states so we will breed dogs that are able to hunt and compete in the show ring both.
I can remember times when our handler would come home from a bigger show and tell us some of the nasty comments that were made to him about our imports. IMO we have a ways to go here in the U.S. when it comes to breeding great dual purpose dogs. Many of our field dogs pedigrees are VERY tightly bred and many of our top show lines have health issues. Where do these people think they are going to eventually go for new lines if they have such a narrow vision ??
Our experiences have been awesome at field trials. The field people here are open to new ideas and dogs. When we first introduced Brit and Kye to field trials people had their doubts. Even though they had their doubts they were still encouraging and thoughtful.
Our imports have proven to some that the U.S. is NOT the only place that breeds nice, good looking, hunting dogs. Kye has made more than a few people sit up in their saddle with his run. He runs BIG and has tremendous heart in the field. The common thought is that a European import will not range the same way a U.S. bred dog will. Kye has made people wonder if this is still the case. Him making the top 10 derby field list was quite an achievement for us and him. He has matured a little slower than some of the U.S. dogs but once he matures he will be a force on the Broke Dog field trial circuit. He is in broke dog training now and should be making his debut this fall in the OGD.
Yes, hunting off horseback is a different game but good bloodlines are good bloodlines and good dogs will adapt.
We have met many great people with our dogs and many have positive things to say with what we are trying to accomplish. With the age of the internet it is so much easier to share bloodlines today than it was only a short time ago.
Does anyone else think we need to find a happy medium between show and field so we can try to breed a better looking field dog or a show dog that loves to hunt ??
Dan

[marjolein]

I think hunting ability and good looks/angulation, should go hand in hand. If I had to choose, I'd go for the hunting lines, but I really think it's wrong, to make a difference between these two.

[Wetdog]

I definitely agree with your philosophy Dan. It is a lofty and worthy ideal.
Genetics works against us however. To breed for one trait is relatively easy. Whatever that trait is, we simply choose it and breed to it. It begins to get more complex as we add more factors to the mix. Having two versatile breeds, this seems appearant to me. I also have German Shepherds. There is a wide split between show and working lines in GSD's as well.
The reason is that the selection process often comes down to choices. Not only in the genetics, but also in the time and resources that go into showing and titleing. This puts the versatile dog at a disadvantage compared to those bred solely to show, or work. Not only are the choices of genetic factors easier for the specialized dog---there is also the choices of the use of resources after the breeding. A show dog cann't be out hunting, and a hunting dog cann't be out showing both at the same time---therefore, each is at a disadvantage when competing on the other's home court.
This means that versatile dogs on average will not take the highest honors in either venue, show or work. But it IS possible breed for dogs that will do acceptably well --- good looking dogs that perform well at working ability. That is a goal that I would agree with.

[anne]

Hey Dan!!

Could agree with you more (of course) :-)

I think Fred is right in general that - at least for now - we have to give up a little on both ends when trying to accomplish both show and field, but I don't think it has to be this way. There are some really nice dogs that are very good at both... they are certainly rare, but I can think of a few. The problem as I see it is that American judges don't judge the Weim as a hunting dog. The dogs they put up are so extreme that there is no way they could do a good job in the field. So I would argue that some show dogs are not a "good" Weimaraner -- even for show, since the standard says that they should give every appearance to be able to run in the field. I just don't see how a pigeon-chested overangulated dog could do that. So this is not a "fault" of the dog not being up to par show wise IMO.

We have a lot of "pretty" in the breed right now. There are certainly lots of ugly field dogs. But that is where the emphasis should be right now because that is what the breed as a whole needs - more hunt. Again just my opinion. All the breeders I know serioulsy breeding for a dual dog tell me that looks are FAR easier to breed in than working ability. Makes sense to me, there are so many facets that make up good working ability. Fixing one trait, like a better topline or better rear angulation, should be easier than trying to work on than a complex trait like hunting ability (desire, heart, nose, range, independence, point, retrieve, biddablity, etc.).

Just my opinion of course!

Anne

[weimslover]

I agree with you 100%. We are fairly new in the sport compared to many people but have been fortunate enough to get to know some of the best Weim people here in the U.S. Every pro field trial handler I have talked to has told me the same thing ----- You can always breed back the looks much more quickly than you can breed back the hunt and desire. It is VERY hard to breed back the run necessary to compete at our kind of trials. I think that is why many of the pedigrees of the really good field trial dogs here have the same 3 or 4 dogs in it. When they find a nick that works they stick with it and build on it to stay competitive. This does create some ugly dogs sometimes but man they can really run. Many start with good intentions but when they see how hard it is to compete with many of the dual bred dogs in field trials they give up and start breeding for just one trait or the other.

A couple of very good breeders told us that if your going to breed for a Dual you will create an average show dog and an average field dog. Not the best at either. I think there has been a few dogs that would prove this theory wrong but I think you could count them on one hand.
The problem we have with many show breeders in the U.S. is they just don't care if their dog hunts. Some do but many don't The chests that drag on the ground and the angles that are so exaggerated they couldn't run for more than a few minutes really is hard for me to stomach. Sadly I don't think it will change anytime soon

You know me-if I had to choose it would surely be to breed for hunt but I don't want to have to wear blinders so I don't have to look at my ugly hunting dog either
Dan

[aktyson]

Hi (dammit) Dan! Good to see you here :-)

Great topic. I believe that it is possible to breed a good looking dog that is a fantastic hunting dog. As Anne already mentioned that dog might not be a BIS dog due to current fads but could be respectable. Off the top of my head, I can think of two DCs that are also NFC and/or NAFC (Saga & Mongo); two DCs that placed in the Nat'l Amateur (Ruby & Gunner); one DC that was called back for a placement at the Nat'l Amateur (Dust); and an NFC that has show points (Doc). Ruby, Gunner & Dust are from "show" lines; and the rest were some mix of "show" and "field" lines.

IMO there is a difference between "ugly" field dogs and "ooogly" field dogs (if you know what I mean). Some of them are just a bit rough around the edges and could be easily refined in one breeding and some of them, well, they could take a bit longer.

Anne Tyson
www.regenweimaraners.com

[Wetdog]

I hope you'll all forgive me for making comparison to German Shepherd Dogs again, but I do think that this discussion has some comparisons that we have seen in the history of the GSD breed.
When Capt. Max Von Stephanitz was organizing and founding the breed(GSD) a little over 100 years ago, he recognized that the number of people who farm and had animals for them to herd was declining. Due to the industrial revolution, the number of people living on farms and rural areas was declining and city dwellers with industrial jobs were increasing rapidly. He recognized that to keep the breed a working breed there would be a need for more that just "herding" instinct, and schutzhund was instituted at a second test of breed working instinct.
Like it or not, this is also happening with Weimaraners. The number and opportunity for people to be hunters is declining today, and is likely to continue to decline in the future(as a per capita percentage of total population). There are just less and less places and opportunities for people to hunt and become initiated into the sport.
I think it would be well for Weimaraners to not only hunt, but also to expand into other areas where hunting instinct is used. When choosing good working dogs---the basic thing that is looked for is "prey drive", the instinct that drives any type of work that dogs do. Schutzhund, basically police dog work made into a sport is based entirely on the same instincts needed for a good hunting dog. Tracking is hunting. Retrieving is hunting.
I think the Weimaraner is a versitile breed that can be used for just about anything that dogs can do.
I'd like to see the breed used in more and differing venues that just field gun dogs. Branching out and using their instincts in more than one area can only be good for the breed I think.
My own personal feeling is that a good working dog is his own reason for being. Good working ability is the foundation of most of our modern breeds. They became breeds because they were good at what they do.
So my philosophy of priority is
1) Health(before it can be ANYTHING else, from a top field dog to a family pet, a dog needs to be healthy)
2) Biddable and temperamentally stable---the best instincts don't mean much if you cann't train and manage and direct them to usefull performance
3) Good looks, don't help much without the other atributes already there.
So, I guess I'd say, breed for looks, but only from dogs that already have shown exceptional assets in instinct, and ability, and usefulness.

[aktyson]

wetdog said:

So my philosophy of priority is
1) Health(before it can be ANYTHING else, from a top field dog to a family pet, a dog needs to be healthy)
2) Biddable and temperamentally stable---the best instincts don't mean much if you cann't train and manage and direct them to usefull performance
3) Good looks, don't help much without the other atributes already there.
So, I guess I'd say, breed for looks, but only from dogs that already have shown exceptional assets in instinct, and ability, and usefulness.

Hear, Hear! One problem I see is that the vast majority of matings listed in the WCA magazine are between dogs that do not have any working titles. I know that there are some very good working dogs without titles. But I do think that requiring breeding stock to be tested either in titling competition or as an actual hunting/working dog would improve temperaments tremendously.

Anne Tyson
www.regenweimaraners.com

[weimslover]

Hey Anne,

Sorry to take so long to respond but spring in Iowa just keeps me on the run. Between you and Tina I'll never live the Dammit Dan title down. Kim says HI too We both totally admire and are in awe of what you guys at REGEN are doing with our breed
The field, obedience, and agility dog people are outnumbered by leaps and bounds by show breeders. And we all are outnumbered by people who just breed to make some extra money and don't care about anything other than selling puppies. Just one look at a WCA magazine will tell you that the vast majority of breeders are show breeders. I think Wetdog makes an excellent point about the lack of opportunities for some people to hunt, especially in the city. You are all welcome to come and hunt with me for some wild pheasants anytime ;D
Anne, there truly are some UGLY field dogs and then, what you call, OOOGLY field dogs. I too want a nice looking dog but I think the looks are a little farther down the list for me.
Maybe I feel the way I do because I have always lived around great hunting spots and take them for granted. If people don't want to hunt with their Weim then maybe they should consider getting a non sporting dog if they are thinking of breeding. I don't think the German's are dumb when they make your dog pass some field and other tests before you can breed. A Weimaraner IS classified as a hunting dog but many show breeders breed dogs that CAN"T hunt. We already have a problem with many lines that show no drive in the field we don't need more. What does that do to our breed???
In closing I want to make a point that I made earlier. I have absolutely NO time for show breeders that run other peoples dogs down in the show ring, PERIOD. Some of these breeders are also judges and are very well known in the Weim world. At least there are people out there trying to do SOMETHING with their dogs. They could be like the majority of other backyard breeders and not care about titling their dogs at all. What does this do to many new comers to the show ring ? You didn't get a dog from my beautiful lines so you might as well quit now. My comment to those people would be lets go outside and turn em loose and see what your dog is really made of
Dan

[anne]

Dan,

I think what Deb, Leslie and I did last year at the ID/MT circuits is exactly what we need to do more of. "Forcing" judges to look at field dogs. I believe Riley was penalized a lot in the show ring in the past because he was different, and the automatic assumpion (after all they only have 2 min per dog) is that different = wrong. As soon as we had a bunch of field type dogs in the ring, which were all within standard, Riley had no problems beating Leslie's show dogs. I wish I could make that trip again this year, but it's not going to be feasible for me and I don't have a dog to show. :-(

Anne

[weimslover]

Hey Anne,

It sounds like you need to get another puppy to work with
To bad your not going to make the MT-ID show circuit this year. I think Deb is going for a couple of days but not the whole thing. I think your right about different looking dogs in the ring. So many times when you enter a field bred dog you are the only one there. It feels like it's over before it starts. We field people do need to get together more and try to show our dogs more often. That can be hard when your breaking a dog and trying to run in field trials too. You know exactly what I mean as you have been through it !!! It's hard to have them in show condition when trying to do trials too.
I was reading your post from October about the 1944 Weim Standard and wow have things changed since then If you own a blue dog it's like you own a space alien from another planet. We certainly don't worry about their performance in the field as we used to. Field ability has been sacrificed for beautiful angles and elegant necks
Dan

[Wetdog]

Dogs were bred for hundreds of years purely on the basis of working ability. If you have dogs with working ability, why should you worry about looks? Pretty is as pretty does.

[marjolein]

But surely a good working dog, should be build properly as well, in order to be able to run the fields!
Beauty, brains, working ability and the ability to run should go hand in hand.

[Wetdog]

But surely a good working dog, should be build properly as well, in order to be able to run the fields!

I don't need a show and a judge to tell me if a dog can run and has stamina in the field, take them out to the field and run them. If that were the case, wouldn't a vet be better qualified as a judge?

Beauty, brains, working ability and the ability to run should go hand in hand.

In an ideal world, yes, in the real world not necessarily. Generally speaking, it is my observation that there is much less inherited disease associated with working lines than show lines. A dog with health problems cann't work---they are automatically selected out of the lines. A dog selected on the basis of looks tells you nothing about its health or temperament when it is stood or trotted around a confined ring for 2-3 minutes.

I don't have anything against conformation shows, just pointing out what I think are limitations to what they tell you. I've had a lot of very good dogs that I wouldn't have traded for anything that would have been laughed out of the ring in conformation shows---but they were still damned good dogs.

[anne]

Hey Dan,

I do have another pup to work with -- but not in the show ring! We have a Doc x Chular pup, just turned 1.

I agree with what Marjolein said about beauty, brains and working ability, but I tend to agree a bit more with Fred on this issue. Show judges here need to go attend some field trials or hunt tests, and then maybe they'd see that some of the dogs they are putting up are not built to have the stamina in the field.

When I went to the Winter Speciality and a few days of the National Field Championships last year, the Sweeps judge SHOWED UP TO THE FIELD TRIAL!!! She had a true interest in seeing how what she was doing in the show translated into the job the dog is supposed to do. You don't know how happy I was to see her there. I spent a couple hours talking to her that day, and I will tell you, I learned A LOT about showing and conformation. She also had the respect to ask field folks about certain questions she had that weren't mentioned in the standard.

The sad part was that when we were talking about why she showed up that day, she said that she wanted to see the dogs that she judged the night before. HA! As if any of those dogs showed up to run at Nationals....

Anne

[Wetdog]

Beauty, brains, working ability and the ability to run should go hand in hand.

I still think that is the best ideal to try for too.

[marjolein]

Hmm, not sure if you get my point. What I mean, is that a good working dog, is per definition properly build, otherwise he could never make it in the field. Agreed?
We don't need judges to confirm that (or not). I think we all know an ugly from a pretty dog, but does a working dog should have the same looks as a "proper" show dog? No way. I think, if a dog can work and has no mistakes when you compare it to the breed standard, you have the perfect dog. If that perfect dog cannot compete with the "proper" show dogs, I don't give a shit tbh.
That's my point.

[syrinx]

I would like to add a little to this discussion. I would like to point out that Australian dogs are not European. There are a couple of European imports, or litters from imported semen, but here the breed is 99.99% American. I know there is some European blood (Mimtrix) in some of the Britfeld dogs, but some of that is half Australian anyway.

And we don't have 'working' and 'show' lines here. Many states have had a hunting ban in place for years, in fact, it is so show focused, it is not even usual for a dog to have an obedience title. The ET (endurance) title is more common, it is a once off test that is run over 10km. The majority of Weimaraners in Australia live in cities. To see one at a country show generally means someone drove for a long time to get there.

And the all knowlegable breeders who have been making nasty comments, about your ''European Imports" may be the same ones who have sent those same health problems to Australia. Perhaps they should speak to Dana Massey (Win Weim) who just judged our state's Specialty show, and commented that the dogs in the Australian Bred class were of a higher quality than you ever see in the classes in the USA.

Perhaps they need an atlas, your dogs are from Australia, not Austria. I can see how they could get them confused....not!
Wendy

[Wetdog]

And we don't have 'working' and 'show' lines here. Many states have had a hunting ban in place for years,

Which is something I think we will be seeing here also. Perhaps not so much legally mandated bans as simply fewer and fewer places to hunt, and fewer people who have had the opportunity to be introduced to hunting and develop an appreciation and enthusiasm for the sport.
Every day, thousands of acres across the country are lost to urban development. You see that right here where I live. When I bought my house 16 years ago I lived at the very edge of the city. I could walk out my front door and have several hundred acres to walk the dogs. I was surrounded on three sides by fields and woods. I had deer, turkey, pheasants, praire chickens, doves, racoons, coyotes, possum, owls, hawks, vultures and myriad smaller species practically living in my yard.
Now, the woods and fields have all been bulldozed over, and replaced with subdivisions and asphalt and shopping malls.
The only open space left for miles is city and county parkland---and I have to sneak the dogs out to let them run because there is always some jerk with a cell phone who hates the idea of anyone having dogs because HE doesn't like them who's calling the Park Rangers or animal control and insisting that they write me a ticket because "This county has leash laws and I want it enforced or by God I'll raise HELL!!!!" Never mind that we were there first and it would have NEVER even occured to him to come try to occupy the area we are in except that he wants to make trouble for anyone who wants to enjoy their dogs.
Farming is being taken over by corporations. Instead of neighbors and families who share the land with others---they are run out of corporate board rooms. Instead of token barb wire fences meant to define property lines among friends(often so old and broken down you have to look for them just to find them) they are being replaced with chain link fences with razor wire across the top. It gives you a feeling of coming across a border between two warring nations---and a feeling of being careful where you step because there are probably land mines too.

SIGH

[anne]

Yes exactly Marjolein!
The problem is that the judges here do not see it that way IMO.
Our standard emphasizes MODERATE and MEDIUM. Many show dogs here are EXTREME not moderate or medium, they have extreme forchests, extreme angulation and extrreme size. Maybe they are impressive with their open gait from the side showing extreme reach and drive, maybe the size and whatnot is impressive in the show ring.... but those dogs would have a hard time running flat out in a 1 hour stake at a field trial, never mind accompanying their owners on a day long hunt.

To me some show dogs are becoming CHARICATURES of what a Weimaraner is supposed to be.

Fred, I don't know GSD's well, but the ones I see in the show ring make me want to puke, I see there too such extremes in angulation, they are practically running on their hocks in the rear and I cannot imagine how a dog like that can herd or do any kind of work at all.