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Post by daniela on May 1, 2006 7:12:44 GMT 1
Our UK breed standard differs from the FCI standard too. It's always baffled me in the sense that the Weimaraner is a German breed and therefore, I believe, we should all be 'following' the breed standard from the country of origin. Hmm, how do you mean?  |
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Post by lizgundog on May 1, 2006 8:47:21 GMT 1
Ah Wetdog you really are a devils advocate! Reflect on this for a moment, if a change of fashion is for the better then obviously that is they way to go, but who are we to say that what we are doing is for the better. Why then do we have breed standards at all? Why then do the German Klub e.v. still have breed wardens and hunt tests which also call for the dog to look good and conform to their breed standard. Remember it was fashion that created the American Cocker Spaniel from a great little English working/show spaniel and turned it into a flashy little show machine. Surely your American standard for Weimaraners starts off the same as ours "a versatile hunting dog" with key words in the standard i.e. Working Type, Pleasing shape, Sinewy,
Powerful Musculature, clearly defined Male/Female types, movement at every pace = ground covering, neck flowing harmoniously into the backline and chest. proportions - length of body = 12.11 (i.e a long body). Now everyone wants a great show dog with great ring presence, after all flashy is as flashy does, but this is not necessarily correct. Flashy quite often has a tail set on far too high and carries it way too vertical in docked weis - which would have the tail thrown up over the back in the undocked ones. Whilst fashion is great, great temperament, great hunting instinct and excellent intelligence is also what is necessary in the dog we all adore.
Health and soundness are now probably one of the most dominating priorities for every breeder, but remember any dog can be sound, even the cross breed up the road, but its the outstanding quality of the breed characteristics which makes up an outstanding Weimaraner.
Liz
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Post by Wetdog on May 1, 2006 14:39:35 GMT 1
As I said, I know very little about the German Klub, relating this statement to German Shepherds, I'm assuming their way of doing things is similar to the SV. meaning that breeding stock must pass a working test(either schutzhund or herding), health(at least A stamp on xrays and run 20 km with a person on a bike), pass a Kore Klasse(basically be deemed breedworthy and put into the club breed book), before it is eligible to be shown in conformation. In order to breed, application must be made to the club for permission and breed wardens oversee every step of the process from mating to puppy tattooing.
The result is a breed that is very tightly controlled for uniformity and quality. The downside is that there is virtually no breeder discresion or leeway at all, all matings being approved by club committee. There is no "improvement", the breeding policy is stacked entirely in favor of maintaining the status quo.
It is my understanding that the German Weimaraner Club would have similar practice. Is this correct?
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Post by Wetdog on May 1, 2006 14:45:17 GMT 1
Meaning that if older type dogs were the ideal that everyone wants and that is what the judges select, that is what we'd be seeing in the rings. Perhaps disqualified is the wrong word, but if taller more elegant and graceful looking dogs were not selected as winners, eventually(and very soon), they'd simply not be entered.
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Post by daniela on May 1, 2006 14:48:06 GMT 1
Good grief. Hope they wouldn't ask the owner to cycle the 20km as part of the requirement.  I could manage it if it was down hill.  ;D |
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Post by Wetdog on May 1, 2006 14:53:56 GMT 1
I definitely agree with this statement, it sounds simple but in truth and practice is very difficult.
I've stated before that I think a dog has to be healthy before it can be anything else.
Nina has related before that she had started a line, and encountered health problems. When she did, she cut that line off and went back and started a new line. I think that is one of the very best breeder decisions I've ever heard of----I'd trust getting a puppy from a breeder like that any day. Very good decision Nina, you have my applause.
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Post by anne on May 1, 2006 21:29:01 GMT 1
My impression of the way Germans do things (and I could very well be wrong, I'm hardly an expert) is that they are looking at the total package and that flashy and ring-presense are not nearly as important as hunting ability by a long shot.... and that conformation is really only a "by product" of the dog that can hunt. In other words, true form follows function.
We can all SAY that we should look to the mother country, we can all SAY we are abiding by the FCI standard, but is it truly that way?? I can say the same for the AKC standard. Are breeders truly breeding a dog that looks like it can hunt all day like the standard says?? "ABOVE ALL, the dog's conformation must indicate the ability to work with great speed and endurance in the field."
My point is, there are very few breeders who breed 100% to the standard (at least the way I see it). And to me that is OK. Sure I wish everyone would breed for hunting ability, but everyone has a different interpretation of the standard. And if stnadards can't change, improvement of the breed, as Fred comments, is limited.
I'm not saying we should discount the standard by any means! My personal feeling is that the Germans have it right in that hunting is the most important aspect of the breed. We've already discussed that the feasibility of testing and actual hutning is becoming harder and harder in many countries, even the US. I personally would never want a Weim that doesn't hunt -- to ME, that is not a Weim. But, I don't think it's necessarily bad for people to interpret the standard in their own way -- even if I think their dogs conformation wouldn't allow them hunt their way out of a box! I'd rather have that, then the strict German system. I think having the leeway to interpret the standard can mean that we do get great differences in style and type and working ability, but I think it also allows some more "risky" breedings, the visionaries to really do something worthwhile..... or maybe more likely the possiblilty of pure luck infusing something of great excellence in the breed.
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Post by lizgundog on May 1, 2006 22:47:56 GMT 1
Anne you are tending to see my point when I stated originally the following - "Improve the breed is something that everyone strives for, but everyone improves the breed to their own interpretation of the breed standard." What we are all striving for is a dog that is better in our own minds & opinion. The real answer to Wetdog's question is that no matter what we strive for individually, the overall result will be the 'EVOLUTION' of the breed into something that in 60 years time will still resemble a Weimaraner (as our dogs do today to the ones 100 years ago, except ours are more refined) - but they will be different. Unless every breeder everywhere were to adopt the same eye for a dog and the same breeding policy an overall improvement would be impossible. And who is to say that the breed needs improving overall - only some areas may need work according to some people. Evolution of man and a species is determined by the environment in which he or it lives, it's up to us to try and ensure that we do the right thing by the breed. Even the German Klub may need to become more open minded in the years to come, but whilst they still have strict controls and requirements it means that if we who breed under relaxed conditions and attitudes muck up, we can always go back and start from the German if necessary - where it all began.
Liz.
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Post by anne on May 2, 2006 4:39:26 GMT 1
Liz,
Not only do I tend to see your point, I agree with you. I think these discussions are great, especially at a global level that this forum offers. There are definitely dogs that I would personally never own and yet can admire for its show ring pizazz. And these dogs may one day have some attribute that I need/desire in my line. In some cases, it's a very good thing that people have very different interpretations of the standard.
For all I talk about field dogs and prefer them, I was very seriously looking for a show bred pup before I got Pixy. The dam was a bitch I would never own... she is extreme, but wow, what a show dog! Overdone but sound, just everything was "it" PLUS. I personally didn't think she was typical for the line and desired what was more typical from that line. Too bad the pup didn't work out for me, I've been following the pups from a previous breeding (I was to get one from a repeat), one day when I can have more dogs, I will probably get a show dog like this.
Anne
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Post by Wetdog on May 2, 2006 16:36:45 GMT 1
OK, back to D.A. again.
So far, no one has really addressed the idea of what the Weimaraner is as a breed.
I've heard a lot of bragging about MY DOGS this or MY DOGS that, hunt, win shows blah blah blah--and that is fine, don't get the idea that I'm not in favor breeding for, and hearing about exceptional dogs. But what does this mean for the breed as a whole? You may have the best hunting dog that ever breathed, but what difference does it make that it is a Weimaraner---it could just as easily be a mutt---and I know many hunters that do quite well with cross breed mutts, it doesn't change their opinion of their dog or what it does in the field.
Why should Weimaraners be shown,(in conformation), why should I care in the least whether my Weimaraner conforms more to the Weimaraner standard, than that Chihuahua over there conforms to the Chihuahua standard? Once you've past best of breed, that is what the competition amounts to. That, and the judge's personal taste and preferences.
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Post by lizgundog on May 3, 2006 11:19:24 GMT 1
Why do you ask this question? Surely if you are a moderator of a pure breed site you would be pro pure breed! I really can't follow your questions here Wetdog!
Sorry bye for now.
Liz.
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Post by marjolein on May 3, 2006 11:42:30 GMT 1
Hehehe, thought it was just me being confused here, LOL! Explain yourself here Wetdog.
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Post by mojo on May 3, 2006 11:50:31 GMT 1
Hey !! what an interesting discussion !
I suggest to jump back to the creator's willness.....building a good and nice dog.
To my mind, he made a selection threw the bests dogs.........trying to find the nicest !
That's my philosophy too. I'm seeking the nicest in the middle of the bests.
My dog must absolutely be good, I mean a hard hunter with a great nose and a hard run! I don't matter if he's not show champion.....but if he can become showChampion, I will show him.
Selecting on what you see is easier than selecting on the hunting spirit.
Chris
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Post by Wetdog on May 3, 2006 15:03:12 GMT 1
The question being, why choose the Weimaraner, there are other breeds, and there are other hunting breeds. What is it that makes the Weimaraner special to you as a breed.
The question goes to the core of breeding, why have a breed at all? What is it that makes the breed special to you? What is that differentiates it from other breeds. Would you want Weimaraners to be a popular breed?(Not everyone will) Or do you think the Weimaraner should be a very rare and expensive, and difficult to find breed that is far past the means of an ordinary person to own?
What should the breed be in the future? We've already touched on the fact that hunting has and is rapidly becoming less and less popular for a number of reasons, both legal and economic and social.
Example: Our club used to sponsor two hunt ratings and trial events per year. We are required by AKC and WCA to have liability insurance to hold an event. Last year, the insurance carrier that we normally used suddenly raised the price from $275 to $780---almost triple the previous price per event. We began shopping around for another insurance carrier and found that over half had completely dropped insurance for events involving the use of firearms, the major reasons that we were given for this is that they don't make enough money on them to warrant continued marketing and increasing pressure from anti-firearms groups. We finally found a provider that would insure the two day events for slightly over $600, still a LOT of money because we are a small club. I provided $200 out of pocket to keep the events going, but we lost a lot of money on them. Nothing legal forbidding hunting, but at this rate, economics dictates that we will have to cut back to one event once a year instead of twice, half as many ratings and trials for competitors to enter.
For centuries, hounds have been bred to hunt foxes in the UK. Now, it is illegal to hunt foxes. What will happen to The English Foxhound since the entire basis of the breed is now illegal? We already have some Australian members who have mentioned that hunting is illegal where they live. What will happen to the Weimaraner as a breed as this situation spreads?
What about harrassment from PETA and other animal rights groups? As I've mentioned before due to changing social and economic factors, places to hunt are rapidly dwindling away---and there is rapidly increasing pressure from organized animal rights groups to severely curtail or ban outright, hunting on publicly owned land. I'm sure Anne is seeing a lot of this in Southern California.
What about the economic costs? What happens when the price of gas goes to say $5-6 a gallon which it already is(or more in many other countries)? Anti-firearms groups have had very little success in getting private ownership of firearms banned in this area. So, they promote all sorts of background checks, permits, taxes and fees, and other impediments to owning firearms under the guise of crime prevention. Once a law is passed it is almost impossible to get it rescinded, especially when government finds that they can collect more tax revenue with very little resistance from voters. Criminals continue just as they always have, in fact, it is a bonanza for them. When they can steal guns they can easily sell them on the black market for huge profits. Criminals love antigun legislation, they make big profits the harder it is for ordinary citizens to own guns. When it finally becomes appearant that the laws intended to take guns away from criminals are actually working to do the exact opposite--and people try to lobby to change the law, the central issue suddenly becomes, not whether the law is working to accomplish the goal for which it was intended, but tax revenue will be lost if it is rescinded--and if it isn't working it MUST be because we don't have enough police and resources therefore we need to spend more, and to do that we need to increase fees and taxes etc.----endless cycle.
I'm trying to promote some discussion of what we think the breed is, should be and how to fit it all into what is happening in the world today.
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Post by emma on May 3, 2006 15:17:20 GMT 1
I have been reading this thread with great interest  I really don´t know that much about weimaraners yet - I just got my first one. I have talked a lot with breeders, owners, hunters and checked out pedigrees. Last weekend I had a very interesting conversation with a field trial judge about weims. One thing many people say is that "pure" German weims are very tough. With tough I mean that they are not necessarily very social and not always very good family dogs because they are bred purely for hunting and also for guarding (even for Schutzhund). This can not be true for all German weims of course but I hear a lot about this. If you look at the German Weimaraner clubs webpage they state that puppies are sold to hunters only ("Nur an Jäger"). This indicates that the dogs are bred purely for work sometimes maybe with the cost of other traits. You have all discussed working vs show but I think one must also consider the dog character here. Most of us want a good looking healthy hunter but this dog must also be a good family dog. So as far as I have understood, it really does matter which kind of bloodlines are used by breeders. And as a puppy buyer one must know what it means to buy a "pure" working dog |
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Post by Wetdog on May 3, 2006 15:33:03 GMT 1
Thank you Emma, very good points, and the type of discussion I was hoping we'd hear.
How can we tell others what we think the breed should be, if we've never given any thought ourselves to what the breed should be?
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Post by marjolein on May 3, 2006 16:05:26 GMT 1
Well, for me it's pretty clear what the breed should be. I think the German system is the way to go. Unfortunately, due to changing opinions, it is impossible in a lot of countries to maintain this standard. For example I know many people who think hunting is cruel, even Weimaraner owners. As long as I own Weimaraners, I'll go to Germany for the German tests, make sure I breed according to their requirements and I do try to sell to hunters or at least people who want to work their Weim. In aswer to your question why we want this particular breed. Easy! Who could resist their eyes, their looks, they way they're build, their intelligence, their will to please. Need I go on? |
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Post by Wetdog on May 3, 2006 16:24:22 GMT 1
Fair enough, however, none of the traits that you mention involve hunting. It does involve Conformation heavily--and also training and temperament, (intelligence, will to please).
You say that you want to hunt and want your Weims to be able in that area, but it is interesting that when you list the breed attributes that you like, all of them are in areas that will also appeal to other people whether they hunt with their Weims or persue some other type of work/pleasure. I can see your description as someone's idea of what a perfect pet/companion should be, even if the closest they ever come to hunting is barking at the birds in the backyard feeder.
Is this a fair statement?
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Post by anne on May 3, 2006 18:24:36 GMT 1
Fred,
The characteristics that make a good hungting also make them good companions at home. The hunting TRAITS are still relevant today in our dogs, IMO, even if the dogs are not hunted.
Also I don't have time to repond to all your thought-provoking comments, but
I do want to say
I run 4 field trials a year under 2 different clubs. We never lose money. I have made as much as $1,000 per trial, and we don't run big trials, average entry of about 70-80 or so for the weekend. It's possible to do, just not easy, to make money.
I also made money when I ran the WCA Western, that was probably pretty unusual....
Anne
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Post by marjolein on May 3, 2006 18:28:04 GMT 1
Well, when I first bought my Weim, I wasn't interesting in hunting tbh. But then one day, someone invited me to a hunt once. From that moment on, I've been hunting every weekend throughout the season.
I think I haven't posted much on here about all my achievements with hunting/working (in a hunting way) results, while I didn't really get much response back then, so I decided to stop with that. I think you can say, that my LH's are the most versatile LH's in Holland. I'm talking about the actual thing, hunting. I'm also talking about fieldwork, bloodtracking and retrieving stuff.
When I talked about intelligence and their will to please, I meant intelligence and will to please in the field.
And last, but not least. I have my Weims as companions first. I also want to work them, but that comes second.
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