American vs. European Lines

[bromhund]

Hi Wendy

Think we need to set the record straight about what lines we have in Australia and what we don't!! to say that Australia has 99.99% American lines is being a little blind sighted. I know you have not been in the breed that long, but to just assume that in Australia we only have US lines. Please check your facts first before making comments on an international chat line that all around the world reads.

We(bromhund) over the last 35 years of breeding have imported dogs from yes America as well as Germany and more recently england where those lines can be found in both the dogs that are currently getting shown as well as worked.

We have bred many show champions but as well as show champions we have numerous working titles and have just bred our first Retrieving trail champion after 35 years which is no easy thing here in Australia. We have many people working our dogs competitively in all areas of retrieving.

We believe that our dogs are bred not just for Good looks but for natural working ability and if someone who purchased a dog from us (and i am sure alot of other breeders) if they had the time and energy to put into training the dogs they too could win retrieving trials.

As we should all be breeding to the standard and not only in looks but in brains!! and i agree with wetdog's comments we should be aiming for both.

And yes maybe it is the not so good looking dog that does well in the field, but in Australia we are lucky to have a lot of confirmation shows, so lots of people choose to purse that hobby. And lets face it if you have a good looking dog you usally do well so you pursue that hobby

As far as working a dog in Australia the field is extremely competitive and from my memory when my father John worked our dogs when i was young it was an extremely time consuming hobby, with alot of time having to go into training.

I am sure if you wanted to you would find there are still plenty of weimaraners not only winning retrieving titles but also obedience and more. Maybe they are not as good at advertising it as the show people and broadcasting it to the world but believe me it is still happening in Australia and we have very talented dogs still to this day.

I have one that hangs out on my couch and goes to shows but it is me who does not have the time to help him reach his true ALL ROUND potential. My dream would to do that!!

I would suggest any one that wants a real history of the weimaraner and as many of the European dogs have Australian lines in them i would suggest contacting me to get the details of Liz Harding and Deb Ryan's book "Searching For the Silver Grey" that traces back the history of the weimaraners in Australia.



Suzanne

PS Cusack was in the Australian Bred Class under Dana Massey and I was extremly proud of her comments about the dogs in that class as I was first and other dog we bred came 3rd!!!

[syrinx]

Hi Suzanne,
Yes, I know about the history of the breed here. I know Bromhund have bought in lines from Germany, and England much more recently. But....
How many imports arrive from the States, pretty much each year? How many from Europe? How many ai litters to American dogs? How many to European dogs? Are any Eropean dogs that do come used as widely at stud as American dogs? Once there is a 'flavour of the month' here, at times it seems as it if it would be difficult to find dogs not related to each other as most people run out and use them. Good idea genetically? Surely you would agree that the American dogs are used so widley that they have a huge influence on the breed genetically. I was talking purely about numbers, statistics, not what dogs have ever been imported here.
And there has to be a reason that so many judges come here to judge specialties, even though our standard is based on FCI. How many dogs would you say have come from FCI countries in the last 10 years compared to the USA?
You are right, I have only been in Weimaraners for a few years, but involved in dogs, rather like yourself, through family involvement, since 1977. I do a lot of research, go through a lot of pedigrees, extended, nto the last 4 or 5 generations, and so do have some little knowledge of the history. Perhaps we could look at the numbers of dogs from each, but more importantly, the number of litters, to look at influence.
And to look at workability, my Phantom's mum, bred by Ingrid in Tassie, became a Swedish blood tracking ch very quickly. She and her half brother Digger in Holland regularly work. I know there is a dog recently in Queensland who has got his Retrieving title, but how many working titles do you see in Canine journals?
All I was saying is that if someone is going to say Australian Weis are European, I think that is way off the mark.
Wendy

[lizgundog]

My name is Liz Harding, my husband and I were married probably because of Weimaraners. Our first Weimaraners were registered in 1974. Over the last 30 years we have had many Weimaraners, my husband has judged National Retrieving Trials in Australia and also judged many state championships and open/all age competitions. We were shooting over our dogs when no one cared if you owned a semi automatic shot gun, I lost my 3 shot auto in the Australian Government crack down on shotguns after the Port Arthur Massacre in Tasmania that killed 35 people. We have always maintained that our dogs should always, ABOVE ALL ELSE LOOK like Weimaraners, they should always be biddable because you can't work an out of control dog, they should always be mad keen workers, our puppies were retriever tested at 7 weeks. A dog we lost to snake bite could retrieve over 50 metres and mark the fall of the bird within 1 metre when he was 7 weeks old. This dog went on to win, Dog Challenge at Melbourne Royal Show and Adelaide Royal Show twice. This dog's bloodlines were basically all American with an English Sire - his progeny are now carving history in Australia, a daughter is currently only five placings of over 185 points in obedience from the first Triple Champion Weimaraner in Australia. It's not what you use and it's not what you do, it's putting the whole thing together and doing what the breed was meant to do - look good, outstanding in fact, but also to have the ability (and it is natural ability) to work - Weimaraners have the most excellent nose, they don't just have to be used in the field. There are so many competitions in Australia now, and our Club - The Weimaraner Club of Victoria Inc. - holds several days a year where Weimaraners and other Hunt Point Retrieve Breeds are tested in every facit of dog work. Fortunately in Victoria we still are allowed to shoot duck and quail in season, however, there is still an abundance of rabbits and foxes (a new bounty just introduced) and in other States of Australia we can shoot ferral animals at anytime of the year. Some states that have banned general duck shooting and quail season still allow duck shooting with a permit on the rice fields.
Finally, I am also a show judge, and I do believe that Weimaraners must have form to function as a breed and must continue to look like the breed that was created many years ago. As mentioned by Suzanne, I have written a book with a fellow Victorian, Debra Ryan, which contains the full history of this wonderful breed in Australia, it contains pedigrees and information of current dogs and past dogs - ALL OF WHOM ARE A GREAT BLEND OF AMERICAN, ENGLISH AND GERMAN DOGS. The first two pair of Weimaraners that came to Australia in 1955 were the progeny of the German imports in 1952 into England, by 1974 these dogs were only in the fourth generation of our pedigrees. When Rosemary Mayhew brought out Am. Ch., Eng. Ch. & Aust. Ch. Arimars Rolf V.D. Reiteralm we saw a great improvement in working ability, especially in water work. The Britfeld dogs that have gone to America will be able to trace their bloodlines not only from the Swedish but also through these American bloodlines. There is no right or wrong to bloodlines, it's the art of mixing that's the trick. Don't think the worst of all show judges - some people work their dogs also.
Liz Harding, Silvahunter Weimaraners (& Jujondy Weimaraners - our working prefix)

[Lois]

I would like to add to this thread too. I too have had 30 years involvement with Weimaraners and while I am no longer in the position to hunt over my dogs due to my location I can assure you that they have lost none of their hunting ability! I have a beautiful litter here from a bitch that is an excellent tracker (gaining her TD in 2 trials with excellent ratings) as well as being, in my opinion a lovely example of the breed.(Best Of Breed at the 2005 Adelaide Royal) The sire of the litter is not only a Grand Champion in the show ring (a Specialty and All-breeds winner) but also a Dual Champion gained in Retrieving and is also used as a working gun dog.
I know of many people that are successful in showing that currently hunt over their dogs - Norma Lacey, Noel Scicluna, Di & Chris Brown, Ian Besanko to name a few.
Our local Weimaraner Club (of which I am Secretary and Life Member) recently conducted a Gundog Working Test and 1st, 2nd and 3rd place all went to Weimaraners beating the Labs, Curly Coats, GSPs and Goldens that were entered. ALL of those Weis went back to US imports.

As for the comment about using US dogs...... why wouldn't you want to utilize these new lines? The latest import's father has a Senior Hunter I think. I know a LOT of the US breeders work their dogs in the various hunt tests available.
I was in Germany for the Centenary Celebrations of the German Klub and at the breed show it was interesting to see several very American type dogs win their classes against the less glamorous types. The German Breed warden that judged our 2nd National here 5 years ago certainly didn't have a problem in putting up many US type dogs. I don't think we as breeders have done too badly!!!

I think it is very shortsighted to sit back and make blanket statements about dogs from particular countries. As a breeder I will use whatever dog I think will best compliment my bitch no matter where it comes from. As for the working ability, this is a breed that can excel in many areas if the owners take the time to train them, no matter what their breeding. If you can do well in the show ring at the same time then that is an added bonus!

Lois

[narelle]

syrinx said:

But....
How many imports arrive from the States, pretty much each year? How many from Europe?

...Are any Eropean dogs that do come used as widely at stud as American dogs? Once there is a 'flavour of the month' here, at times it seems as it if it would be difficult to find dogs not related to each other as most people run out and use them.

Gee Wendy which part of the country do you live in? From my knowledge we have imported 2 dogs from the USA one in 2000 and in 2004, Levi arrived before that and Carol's new dog just arrived? I'd be happy to hear of anyone else bringing in dogs 'every year' and Im sure anyone would be happy for YOU to import from Europe if you feel we are lacking....

Also, in case you hadn't noticed, only one outside breeder has used our american dog since he arrived in Sept 2004 so I think you have made an overly general statement about what breeders do and don't use.

I really don't think that its apprpriate to discredit ANY imports into any country, why not look at it on a positive note that 'someone' is looking to add to the gene pool.... how those dogs are used is up to the individual breeders and you don't need to let it affect you!

Narelle

[Pasquinel]

Hi

My name is Kristina and I´m from Sweden, I have 5 bitches and all of them are approved as the Swedish Weimaranerclubs demands for broadbitches list W2 or W1. Which means you have to be approved in the water and landretrieving test, at least a 2 price in the showring, approved at a blodtrackingtest and HD free for the W2 list and a price in the field for W1 list

Two of them are Australian imports and two are German-English – Swedish lined longhairs and the last one is half Australian and half European. It´s 3 longhairs and 2 shorthairs

The oldest longhair is Classic Dreams Gosan, and she is Swedens second obedience champion in the breed, and she´s also a blodtrackingchampion and a double Swedish winner at the big show in Stockholm 2004 and 2005 so she has big working ability and is winning in the show ring also.

Next one is Classic Dreams Mercedez, she´s a blodtracking champion and also up in highest class in obedience and has also CC in the showring

Next one Greydove French Affair is a Nordic winner 2003 in Stockholm, and is approved as a broadbitch and is hunting rowdear now

Next is Bromhund Fab Fortune and she has 2 prices left to the blodtrackingchampion title and has obedience prices and 1 price in the showring. Also approved as a broadbitch

Our last one is our own bred Pasquinels Chenoa av Greydove , her sire is Greydove Hot Summer Nite and her dam is Gosan. Her grand father is the American import to Australia Nani N Greydove Milenium Bug. She was a blodtrackingchampion at 11 month, got a 3 prize in the field at 12 months and has 5 Certifications in the showrings. She´s very allround to

I wished to tell you what my dogs and I have done, not to brag ! Just so that you understand what we are doing with them. All of them has strong hunting ability, loves water and are retrieving very good. All kind of games and other things to. They have done the water and land retrieving test with good results so they are good workingdogs all of them.

I was in Australia in November 2005 and saw their Nationals and was very impressed with the quality of the dogs. And I have seen all the imports here , they all have done big winning in the showring and in many other trials to. I have never seen so many beautiful dogs at the same place

I had also the opportunity to be with the Bromhund gang, Suzanne and her dogs and up in Queensland with Rosemary and John for 2.5 week and loved the whole time. I´m very impressed with what I saw there, their passion for water and their retriving and their speed out in the wood ! If I had one of those dogs I´m sure that they would be a great workingdog here ! One of them, Buster could retrieve and swim forever

So I´m very happy with my Australian dogs !

Regards Kristina

[Alkemist]

I have been following this thread with interest. Many years ago, I had picked up an opinion that American and 'foreign' dogs were not what you wanted in your lines (I am English btw), keep your pedigrees as English as you could get them and avoid some dogs at any cost (American and others). So for my first (and only litter yet) I made my choices and got some fab pups, 4 qualified for Crufts first time out, and even now they get nice comments, BUT there was a BIG problem with health in the litter ( I have a 50% rate of cysts, and a 20% rate of MCT's).

I then realised that I should do what I felt was right. I brought a bitch into the UK, she has some fantastic mixed lines, and she is from Magda and Kris in Poland. The comments that we have had made about what we have done have sometimes upset us very much. Thats natural, what is different to the norm is often unfairly criticised, but before I just waffle too much, the point I am trying to make is that what does it matter where your dog is from, what does it matter what others do and don't do. As long as you have the breeds best interests at heart, and you can stand by what YOU have done, and you can say that you are trying to improve health, and all of these other things, including working ability, then you can be proud of your dogs and what you have owned or bred, wherever their lines are from.

And if you don't like what others are doing, well who says you have to? Just do what you want to, but to criticise is just pointless. If we all had the same preferences, the same lines, the same goals, well life would be pretty dull.

Nina

[Lois]

Photographic evidence that working Weimaraners are alive and well in Australia!!


The male on the left won Puppy In Show at the 2005 SA Wei Show and also won a large class at the National in November.

[syrinx]

I really don't think that its apprpriate to discredit ANY imports into any country,
Narelle

Exactly which import/imports did I discredit???

And OK, there have been 4 US imports (5 actually) in the last six years, but you would have to look at genetic material used here too. How many ai dogs are there from American semen? Are they any different to those sired here by bringing in the dog?

And my understanding is that there are three more coming.

How many from Europe? Three or so from the UK, which is usually seen as separate from Continental Europe anyway. Don't know just how many English or European ai's there are.

Heavens, all I was saying is that genetically, we have much more American blood than European, not going back as far as the Strawbridge dogs. Recently. If you look back from when Tank arrived, on, how do the numbers stack up?

The other one I counted is Judy's Lugar from the States, but half German. But he's a longhair. Speaking about longs, Helga was probably the most influential bitch but that's just IMHO. She and Tank probably turned around the breed here IMHO. And both Americans.

I am not anti-American, if that is what you thought, otherwise I would not have the dogs I do. ALL I WAS TRYING TO SAY was it was ridiculous for someone to consider Australian dogs as European imports when we have much closer ties to the USA.

That was all.

Wendy

[silvasheen]

This is the first time I have posted to this forum & after following the thread over the past day or so, I feel I have to add my comments. My husband Chris and I have been involved in Weimaraners since we purchased our first dog, Greybeau Archilles, in 1980. Both of us are keen hunters and Zac was purchased solely as a hunting companion for Chris. Zac's lines were nearly pure English with his sire being Kennerton Inca & his dam Shadowline Bella. Both of these dogs had English sires & dams with the exception of Bella's dam who was Aussie bred from English lines. In 1981, we purchased a bitch, Greylag Silva Warena. Tara's sire was the English import Greyfilk Lammas & her dam was Ch Kennerton Isabella, a litter sister to Inca - i.e. with English sire & dam. In 1983, we purchased our true foundation bitch Grauhund Hi Calypso. Callie's sire was the English import Ch Monroe's Zebedee (Imp. UK), a dog who did much to improve on fronts & shoulders. Her dam traces back to all English lines. As mentioned, Callie is our true foundation bitch and we have her great-grand daughter (Demi) & great-great grandson in our kennel today. Her great, great, great grand-daughter is excelling at tracking, hunting & is also a Multi Class in Show winner. Demi's great grand-daughter and great great grandson are probably the best gundogs we have bred to date. Demi is the dam of Dual Ch (T) Silvasheen Crystl Vision UD (Millie), Ch Silvasheen Field ODreams CDX & Silvasheen River ODreams. These three dogs were sired by the half English bred dog Ch Jujondy Crazy Horse, bred by John & Liz Harding (Silvahunter/Jujondy Kennels). All three dogs named above, excel in all disciplines - hunting, obedience, tracking, showing and Millie is aiming at becoming the first Triple Champion Weimaraner in the history of the breed - all stemming from our English-bred bitch.
We also own a three quarters American bred dog in partnership, his dam and his half sister who is working brilliantly in the field. We have imported semen from the UK back in 1994 and this will figure in our future breeding plans. I agree totally with Lois, Liz & Suzanne's comments. A visit to our website will show that we are dedicated to producing Weimaraners who not only conform to tbe breed standard, have biddable temperaments but who also have inherent hunting ability and this is something that we will not compromise under any circumstances. We are proud of our dogs achievements and it is more than heartening to see that dogs from our lines are successful in the showring one day (see Lois's post & photos) and can head out into the field the next day and perform admirably. If you wish to see working Weimaraners, please visit our website at www.silvasheen.homestead.com/Demispage.html

Dianne

[narelle]

alkemist said:

And if you don't like what others are doing, well who says you have to? Just do what you want to, but to criticise is just pointless. If we all had the same preferences, the same lines, the same goals, well life would be pretty dull.

Nina

This is kind of my point too Nina.

[narelle]

syrinx said:

I really don't think that its apprpriate to discredit ANY imports into any country,
Narelle

Exactly which import/imports did I discredit???

Wendy

I feel you are discrediting the use of the American dogs by breeders here.

All the dogs we have exported to Europe are American based and all have had to endur versatilities other than the 'showring' and have succeeded including one who has passed a German Hunt Test.

I realise what your initial thread is suggesting re the American vs European lines in the Australian Weimaraner I just think it has developed int a 'dig' at the utilisation of th eAmerican stud dog brought int the country whereby I think its blatently obviously thse imports whether semen or in the flesh have been nothing but useful and we are finding mre and more that our European breeders are finding it useful themselves to import their stock from Australia obviusly seeing something they like here too!


Narelle

[ashlaren]

Hi, I thought I would show you some pictures of our dogs, the first one is a puppy we bred, who at 11 weeks was retrieving rabbits. His father is Aust Grand Ch Divani Just a Dash and his mother is Aust/NZ Ch Ashlaren Crepe Suzette. Both parents come from American lines. Notice the conformation of this youngster and keeness to work! The fellow who uses this dog in the field lives west of Sydney, near Orange, NSW and is one of the leading field trial experts in Australia and he tells me the field working ability of Raj, as he is called, is outstanding. He has had various other gundog breeds in his lifetime but says this youngster is the best worker he has ever had. This photo of this boy, Ashlaren Manhatten ("Raj"),was on the front cover of the July 2004 edition of Australian Hunter Magazine. The second photo is Aust/NZ Ch Ashlaren Mango Jelly, litter brother of MBISS Aust/NZ Ch Ashlaren Crepe Suzette, retrieving a rabbit near Hamilton, New Zealand. Their father is Am Ch/Aust Grand Ch Colsidex Grauhund Just Jeans (imp USA).
Another one of our boys, owned by Colleen Davis of Newcastle, is Aust Ch Ashlaren Oxford ("Ernie") and he won the 2005 award for the Best Versatile Gundog presented by the Weimaraner Club of NSW. Ernie has different American lines behind him. This is Ernie at work with Colleen's partner, Tony.
I think you'd agree that these dogs have the beauty, brains and working ability all in one package!
Lainie Knox Ashlaren Weimaraners, Australia

[weimslover]

Wendy,

I'm afraid it was my fault that this thread was called American vs. European lines. My original intent was to ask the question if anyone has noticed that the European lines have a tendency to mature at a slower rate than some of the American lines. Once I started typing I ended up not even asking this question and ended up on other subjects. Maybe my thread should have been titled something else. You are correct that both of the dogs we imported from Sally are less than 1/4 European. But there are 5 different countries in their 5 generation pedigree. Liz is correct that they all go back to TANK. To me it is a wonderful mix of blood and we are totally thrilled with what kind of dogs they have become to this point.
IMO all of you Australian breeders that have posted should be PROUD of what you are doing with our breed. It seems to me you are not scared to try new things and go anywhere to get blood if you think it will improve your dogs. I know Sally of Britfeld is extremely proud of what these two dogs have accomplished to this point as she should be The point I was trying to make is way to many show breeders here in the U.S. have tunnel vision. In many of their minds they don't need to go anywhere else for blood because theirs is already the BEST . One U.S. breeder asked why would you import a dog from Australia when there is NO benefit in doing so ? Many of the field trial breeders here thought there was no way that an import could have the range it takes to run in our kind of field trials. Kye has proven that to be false. His range and drive is as good as most of the U.S. dogs. BOTH dogs are show pointed and field pointed in the U.S. and Kye has a VERY good shot at being a Dual Champion someday.
It seems I touched a nerve with you Wendy but I can assure you I wasn't trying to say that Brit and Kye were European dogs. I'd like to think they are a mix of some of the finest Weimaraners in the world.
Again you all should be proud of what you are doing to improve the Weimareaner. I LOVE the mix and think it only benefits the breed.
Dan

[Pasquinel]

Hello Dan

I´m Kristina and I´m writing from Sweden, my girls Gosan, Mercedez and Chenoa is going back to Tri-x "Herbert" all of them. He´s the grandfather to Gosan and Mercedez through their mother Gundras Walburga and greatgrandfather to Chenoa.

He´s also great grandfather to Xardiko who is the father to your dogs also. I had the opportunity to meet Sally and Xardiko also when I was in Australia and I´m a friend of Mimmi from Mimmtrix.

Xardiko at the Nationals 2005





My first weimaraner was a son to TRi-x , his name was Tshaka who was a litterbrother to Sallys sire Impi. It´s a small world.

I have got very sweat photos of Debbie from Mimmi , she looks wonderful ! Looking forward to meet her later.

It´s a small world...

Best regards Kristina

Pasquinel's Weimaraners Sweden
www.pasquinel.se

[Wetdog]

For those of our members who are not familiar with the term "Devil's Advocate", it comes from the proceedings in the Roman Catholic Church in declaring some person eligible for Sainthood. It means a person who makes an arguement AGAINST a very popular and well accepted idea. In order to arrive at the truth we have to look at the sides of an issue that we don't want to hear about or that challenges the basis and validity of issues that may be based on emotion rather than fact.

I think we have community here that includes some of the more prestegious breeders in the world. I'm sure that many of you know others that I don't, if you would like to let them know about the board so that we could have their input too, please do.

It would be fair to say that the common goal is to "improve the breed".

I think it would also be fair to say that we all agree pretty much that good breeding is the way to "improve the breed".

But what exactly do we mean when we use the noble and lofty sounding phrase "improve the breed".

[lizgundog]

Well wet dog, devil's advocate you are! Improve the breed is something that everyone strives for, but everyone improves the breed to their own interpretation of the breed standard. I have a question - how can we all improve the breed in the same way when the American Breed Standard differs from the FCI breed standard (Australia adopted the FCI standard many years ago)? I believe that we need to look back to where the breed has come from as well as where we are going, because we need to reflect on what the founders were looking for in their dogs e.g. In an early 1900s standard for the breed the height is given as 55 to 65 centimetres & 25-30 kilos. The current height in FCI is 59 - 70 cm. Why did our breed increase in height? Are we breeding for flashy? Are we breeding for type (remembering that type is created by the characteristics that give the breed it's unique appearance)? Some thoughts, have a great day.
Liz.

[Wetdog]

Fashions change, and standards change in accordance with the consensus of breed fanciers. Weimaraners are taller than the original standard for the same reason men no longer wear powdered wigs and women hoop skirt dresses.

If the idea that Liz has put forward were popular, wouldn't the show rings be over run with German dogs and most others disqualified?

[weimslover]

Wetdog,

I love reading your posts. The are awesome and really make you lthink !!! Powdered wigs and hoop skirt dresses Maybe the reason my wife wants a new sofa every two years is because fashions change !!!
The way I see it, just because fashions change doesn't make it right. Some of the popular U.S. show dogs could not hunt for a one hour stake in their dreams. Actually many couldn't hunt for a half a day in normal hunting conditions. They are not built too. They are way over angulated and their chests are cumbersome and huge. I think what Liz is saying is we need to focus on the best of both worlds. Beauty and brains can co-exist in the same dog. Lets adopt a standard or (fashion) that lets our dogs hunt they way they were suppose too and also be beautiful in the ring. I just don't see that happening here in the U.S. anytime soon !!
KRSITINA------
Thanks so much for the pictures of Xardiko. I didn't have the last one you sent. It really is a small world and it's nice to talk to you !!!!!!!
We are really looking forward to seeing what Debbie can do in Sweden. BTW her litter brothers Zane and Tanner ended up going 1st and 3rd in this weekends field trial. Debbie should follow when Mimmi gets her in the field. She is also a very nice looking girl !!!!
Thanks again for the photos
Dan

[Wetdog]

First of all, let me say that I know almost nothing about the German Weimaraner Club, their way of doing things or ideas.

I would like to hear some opinions from people here however about what you think the breed is now, what it should be, and how should that be accomplished.

I mean, the Weimaraner as an overall breed, not any particular lines.

By the way Dan, we'd all like to see a picture of you in your powdered wig!(LOL)